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Frozen - You stayed out in the cold too long and froze your huevos and sense off!!! No fucking way is Jones as good as Ahman. Ahman on this team last season = SB appearance. Shit Jones even spotted Ahman a fumble in SF so you can’t say about Ahman fumbling. And he damn sure isn’t as good as Jim Brown. Jones probably wouldn’t have last one season in that time.
Loved Jones when he was doing his thing but can’t put him in the workhorse category IMO.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. In fact, that's exactly how I feel. Like you, I'm not sure I'd have had the stone-cold balls to move on from him this season but if Gute thinks it's the right call, I support him. He probably knows a few things about the overall situation that you and I don't see. Maybe there's more going on with his knee or overall health that is strictly internal information; maybe the trainers have reported that the hamstring and/or the knee are not recovering as well as we fans can observe. Maybe they're reporting that his recovery from those injuries is not on a pace that they would have expected, that he's reached that point in his career where suddenly the everyday aches and pains of an NFL running back are not responding and bouncing back as quickly and as easily as they did a couple of years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobblehead
Maybe there are even more soft tissue things that don't rise to the level of mandated reporting, but when added up paint a picture of a player who's aging out more quickly than people outside the organization would see. Because that really is a thing in sports, and something GMs have to account for.
Could be any one of those things, but it could simply be that internally, they see a player who's wearing down more quickly than we reaize.
Or, it could be that this is an example of cutting a player a year too early rather than risk doing it a year too late. Which is a judgment call that I would completely support, because it tells me our GM is not afraid to make ruthless and unpopular decisions if he feels that's in the best interest of the team.
I just keep in mind that in Gute's worldview, this is our window. I think he had a master strategic plan that centered on our Super Bowl window opening in 2025, with 24 being the year that our young team would make a playoff run and get soime postseason experience to prepare them for a serious Lombardi run in 25. But that the second half of 23 essentially became our 2024, and jumped our timetable a full year.
And (if that is true) these 2 FA signings suggest that he gets that, that he's committed to going all in; that he's erring on the side of extreme caution, and unwilling to risk that opportunity by betting our entire stack of chips on the hope that a 30-year old running back who suddenly suffered at east 2 injuries last season is going to stay healthy for 6 solid months in 2024.
Which is why this is a bold move that I completely support, no matter how sad it makes me. For the players and the fans, it's a game, but for the front office it's a cut-throat, coldblooded business. I'm glad we seem to finally have a GM who gets that, and is capable of doing whatever it takes to move the entire team forward. Even when his decisions are very painful to see. I'm glad he's there to make those calls, because it sure as hell wouldn't be something I could do.
Oh, I'm definitely not saying Jones is as "good" as Jim Brown; that man is a legend who literally defined how the position should and would always be played for the rest of the NFL's history.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadtownPacker
And I'm sure not going to argue that he was "better" than Ahman Green; declaring someone a "better" back is a broad, comprehensive term that goes beyond mere statistical numbers. I'm not afraid to die on a hill if I truly believe my argument is a good one, but neither one of those two hills even come close.
If you offer me a choice between 7 years of Aaron Jones in his prime, and 7 years of prime Ahman Green, and as much as I love Aaron, I'm taking Green 10 times out of 9. Because it's about so much more than just stats; Green was an absolute force of nature, a gamechanger every time he broke the huddle, not just when he had the ball. When Green was on the field, the entire defense changed their whole look. I'm old enough to have seen Jim Taylor and Paul Hornung play (still have their autographs), and I'd put Green right up there with those two - second only to Taylor.
I'm only saying that in terms of pure statistical productivity, which is one of the important meaures of what makes a back great but not the only one, Aaron Jones has had an amazing run in Green Bay. And we're lucky to have been here to see it, and I just hope that as he moves on to the next phase of his career, we all regard him with the proper appreciation.
I threw together a table comparing his stats to Ahman, but I can't figure out how to get it to display here. Hopefully it's not too hard to work out; Jones is the first "column" of numbers, and Green is the right-hand column.
Obviously, Green's career totals are way ahead of Jones, because he played 12 seasons and Jones only 7. But when you look at the stats in terms of game-by-game and season-by-season, Jones has a clear edge overall. Out of 13 significant statiscal categores, the two are remarkably close in many (if not most), but Ahman only has the edge in 2 of the 13 - yards per game, in which he has just a 1-yard advantage, and carries per game, where he leads 13.9-12.1. And in some of the others, Jones is significantly ahead (yds per carry, yds per season, and several of the receiving categories).
Jones Green
Rushing yds/yr 848 767
YDS per carry 5 4.5
YDS per game 61.2 62.2
ATT per game 12.1 13.9
Rushing TD/year 7 5
Receptions per year 38 31.5
Receptions per game 2.8 2.6
Rec. Yds/year 296.6 240.2
Rec. Yds/game 7.8 7.6
Rec. TD/game 2.6 0.08
Total yards per year 1147.7 1143.5
Total TD per year 9 6.6
Fumbles per carry 1/78.6 1/56.9
(source: statmuse)
And you can't get around the fact that of the hundreds of men who have played running back in the modern era, when one of them puts up a couple of very significant statistics (yards per carry) that have been matched or exceeded only by players like Jim Brown, Mercury Morris, and Joe Perry, that's an extraordinary accomplishment. Hundreds of other players (including a few Packers) have played many years in this league and not even come close to that. I understand that yeah, blocking schemes, coaches, Aaron Rodgers, etc, but is there really anything else about the Packers offense over the last 7 or 8 years that jumps off the page and stands out as so unique and so completely unparalled in NFL history that it would explain a running back who's good (or even really, really good) being one of only 3 players who equalled Jim Brown and Joe Perry in number of seasons with 5.25 yards per carry?
Especially in seasons where they went 7-9. 6-9-1, and 8-9? An argument could be made for 2020 (13-3), but were the 2017, 2018, and 2022 Packers legendary teams who could carry a back to greatness? Every one of those season were years where the Packers basically sucked, Rodgers struggled, and the only thing about the offense that actually worked was handing it to Aaron Jones. He wasn't coasting behind dynamic, powerhouse offenses who dominated the league and opened up numerous opportunities for the RB to exploit imbalances - he was it. He was the the most productive part of the offense all 3 of those years. On RPO plays, every D knew there was a strong likelihood it was going to be Aaron coming out of the backfield, because that was basically all we had to offer. It wasn't the offense carrying Aaron, and Aaron taking advantage of them. It was Aaron carrying the team.
Again, I'm not saying he was one of the greatest backs of all time. The statistics only go so far, and I would have a hard time arguing that it should go anywhere near that far. But I think at some point, when you're looking at Aaron's career, you have to accept that he has rather quietly put in a truly amazing body of work (unmatched in many key ways by any other back in his era) and we have to stand back, look at it, and acknowledge that he was the key factor in all of those seasons. You give the man the ball, and he gets yards. Year in, year out. I really don't believe he gets the respect and appreciation he's earned here in Green Bay.
I'd be interested in the statistics just for Green's time with the Packers. The Seattle and Houston years are going to bring his averages down.
To my mind, Green was the better back. He could go the distance, and he could plow through the line and get that crucial three yards (unless he was tripped by one of his own guards). After he stopped wearing those forearm pads, he quit fumbling so much, too. If Aaron Jones had Green's size, he'd be Ahman Green but with better receiving skills. Both really good backs, but to my mind Green was much better. In fact, one of the best Packer running backs ever. Ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWLuCbobQtc
Ahman Green was freaky deaky and one of the most talented Packers ever.
Damn why you gotta chop down Frozen’s big post with little facts like that? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpe1027
I didn’t even think about the Seattle years. Yep take out the 2 Seattle years and his last three after he left GB and it changes a lot. If we go just by the Packers stats it might get ugly.
Green Averaged over a 1000 yards a season during his time in Green Bay, he had 54 rushing touchdowns in 8 seasons along with 350 receptions and another 15 touchdowns. He only played in 5 games in 2005, and was brought back in 2009 and never started a game for GB.
2003 he pretty much put the team on his back when Favre broke his thumb and rushed them into the playoffs.
Green shouldn't just be considered one of the best ever in Green Bay, but should get recognition as one of the top 15-20 backs of all time in the NFL. Green is the all time leading rusher for GB, he is considered the 2nd best running back in the history of the Packers. I would say Jones is invited to the party, and even say he is securely in the top 5.
If you want to compare them in their 6 prime years in Green Bay Green has over 8000 yards rushing vs 5500 for Jones. Jones did lead the league in 2019 with 16 rushing TDs, Green had 15 in 2003. 320 receptions for Green vs 263 for Jones.
Because I am the culo rat.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadtownPacker
Translation - Just like when you get stuck babysitting your bad behaving little nephew.. but you are an even bigger asshole :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpe1027
https://images7.memedroid.com/images...7f4c1f6e9.jpeg
Jones is an amazing running back. I'm sad to see him leave. I understand why the Packers moved on.
All three of those things can be true.
There's a fourth thing that may be equally true... it could be that the main reason he left was not because he felt dissed, or that he was greedy - it could be that he hears his clock ticking a lot more loudly than we can hear it, and realizes there's a good chance this is going to be his last "payday" contract. It's possible that he thinks however much guaranteed money he makes on this contract is the last money he ever makes in the NFL, and just couple million more dollars is all the bottom line he needs to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpe1027
I've loved the guy and respected him too long to not give him the benefit of the doubt at this stage. I just wish him well, and hope he piles up 17 straight 100 yard games as the Vikings crash and burn their way to a 4-13 record (sweeping both the Bears and the Lions). He was a dedicated Packer who bled green and gold until the day the Packers told him they didn't want to pay him what he asked, and which point he owed the team nothing.
I have to say, though, that he may have outsmarted himself. The Vikings might just wear him out with 20-25 carries a game, whereas if he had stayed here and tandemed with Jacobs, he might have stretched his career out another season as a rotational back.
Green was the better back. Jones has been the best back since Green. Maybe Jacobs changes that.
Several Packer reporters have stated that Jones aggravated his hammy again on his last carry against the 49ers, and it was serious enough that there was some doubt about if he would have been available a week later if the Packers had won.
This likely influenced their negotiations with him.
I heard that too, I think it was the JSO reporters. That all sounds like speculation, but if his legs are fragile at this point they aren't going to get much better... and even with an offseason to heal, how long would he stay healthy?
And that is the downside. I loved the guy, I had hoped they'd bring him back, but I understand that his availability was an issue. It was a fairy-tale story that he was hurt so much during the season, then got healthy at the end and at times put the team on his back in the playoffs. Or at least was the reason Love had so many open receivers. But next year, he could be healthy the first eight games, but miss the rest of the season. Not such a fairy tale there.
I love Aaron Jones, but I understand why they did what they did.
Yep. I read the Packers offer was 4 million with 2 million in incentives. I suspect the incentives had to do with number of games played. I can understand why the Packers would want that. I can understand why Jones didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz
HOW MANY GAMES over the past 5 YEARS did Aaron Jones and Josh Jacobs miss due to injuries ?
I think age is a calculation when RB's nearing 30 years old have injuries. If they were close to same age, it likely would have turned out differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bretsky
thats an interesting "leak" that the team put out about an injury that the vikings saw no problem with
almost seemed like the packers saw that the fans weren't too happy about the release, and decided to put this little nugget into the ears of the reporters that are basically on the team payroll
gutey might do a fine job at building a team, but he sure seems like a complete piece of shit the way he handles things