The Inside Story of How the NFL's Plan for Its 1st Openly Gay Player Fell Apart

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Originally Posted by pbmax

I don't think activists are looking to drive away the idea that the behavior is sinful (some may indeed want this to be the case) but they do not want that idea enshrined in law. I am sure there are those willing to fight on that ground, but I do not think that is the main thrust.

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What is law, but an expression of the values of the society? If gay behavior is no longer perceived as sinful (wrong), the law would simply reflect that. The battle is with the culture and values. Using the courts and the law is just a means to the end of changing the culture, and the activists are generally more effective in using the legal system. But they want to change the culture, and to do that, you need to collapse the pillars of resistance. They effectively neutered most churches, the military, and have captured popular culture. The institution of marriage is a popular target that is inexorably yielding so, as funny as it may seem, the NFL actually represents one of the last strongholds against acceptance and celebration. Eventually it will give way too.

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Originally Posted by SkinBasket

Men can, and often do, feel and express love for each other without physical attraction or action.

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if you were here, right now, I would hug you.

For less than three seconds.

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Originally Posted by mraynrand

What is law, but an expression of the values of the society? If gay behavior is no longer perceived as sinful (wrong), the law would simply reflect that. The battle is with the culture and values. Using the courts and the law is just a means to the end of changing the culture, and the activists are generally more effective in using the legal system. But they want to change the culture, and to do that, you need to collapse the pillars of resistance. They effectively neutered most churches, the military, and have captured popular culture. The institution of marriage is a popular target that is inexorably yielding so, as funny as it may seem, the NFL actually represents one of the last strongholds against acceptance and celebration. Eventually it will give way too.

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This thread is dangerously close to entering the area where it might be expunged.

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Originally Posted by mraynrand

if you were here, right now, I would hug you.

For less than three seconds.

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I'd shake Skinbasket's hand and say 'Right on Mate'.

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Originally Posted by SkinBasket

Have you seen a gay pride parade before? They don't exactly promote the emotional aspects of homosexuality. Additionally, that is what we're talking about - sexual behavior. Men can, and often do, feel and express love for each other without physical attraction or action.



If you believe there is more time, effort, and money being spent trying to cure homos than is spent promoting homosexuality, you haven't turned on a television in the last 20 years.

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Well, I am wise enough not to expect the Mardi Gras celebration to be a perfect reflection of life in New Orleans. Many writers have noted that the parades are double-edged swords (there you go). There are always people willing to be publicly confrontational in groups, that is not unique to homosexuals.

And I think that if we tally the efforts to ignore, marginalize, suppress or deny homosexuals and balance it against more recent efforts working toward tolerance and acceptance, the balance sheet is still tilted in favor of suppression. Pray away the Gay is simply the silliest effort on that front (the commercial version, no problem with anyone praying for help, guidance or providence).

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Originally Posted by woodbuck27

This thread is dangerously close to entering the area where it might be expunged.

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only by the intolerant

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Originally Posted by pbmax

And I think that if we tally the efforts to ignore, marginalize, suppress or deny homosexuals and balance it against more recent efforts working toward tolerance and acceptance, the balance sheet is still tilted in favor of suppression.

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I'd like to see your balance sheet

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Originally Posted by SkinBasket

Men can, and often do, feel and express love for each other without physical attraction or action.

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Those aren't two pillows!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-J4rubdTKMr...es+Pillows.jpg
Did you see that Bear's game? Hell of a game.

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Originally Posted by mraynrand

What is law, but an expression of the values of the society? If gay behavior is no longer perceived as sinful (wrong), the law would simply reflect that. The battle is with the culture and values. Using the courts and the law is just a means to the end of changing the culture, and the activists are generally more effective in using the legal system. But they want to change the culture, and to do that, you need to collapse the pillars of resistance. They effectively neutered most churches, the military, and have captured popular culture. The institution of marriage is a popular target that is inexorably yielding so, as funny as it may seem, the NFL actually represents one of the last strongholds against acceptance and celebration. Eventually it will give way too.

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Well, this is the crux of the matter. I do not believe values or behavior need be enshrined in law to remain valuable or sinful. Are there still laws on the books over adultery? There probably are considering some states rely on rules for carriages to govern their highways, but I doubt they are enforced.

Enshrinement in law is a step beyond values or beliefs. Informed by them, shaped by them, interpreted by them, but they cannot be one and the same.

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Originally Posted by mraynrand

I'd like to see your balance sheet

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A lot of it is redacted by request of the Catholic Church. But its still an interesting read.

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Originally Posted by mraynrand

only by the intolerant

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I'll post this:

I'm glad that those "I don't give a shit" posters have taken their "I don't give a shit" attitudes out of this discussion.

Made way for those here that "do give a shit".

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Originally Posted by pbmax

A lot of it is redacted by request of the Catholic Church. But its still an interesting read.

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If you investigate it, you might find that the Catholic Church didn't spend much time on the issue until challenged on it. But on your balance sheet will also have to be all the churches that accept gay behavior, and all of culture that has driven the issue for the past decades. And if we're going to go back in time, how far back do we get to go? How about Caligula's Rome? Maybe just concentrate on where we are right now and the trend?

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Originally Posted by pbmax

Pray away the Gay is simply the silliest effort on that front (the commercial version).

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Is that by Ronco?

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Originally Posted by pbmax

Well, this is the crux of the matter. I do not believe values or behavior need be enshrined in law to remain valuable or sinful. Are there still laws on the books over adultery? There probably are considering some states rely on rules for carriages to govern their highways, but I doubt they are enforced.

Enshrinement in law is a step beyond values or beliefs. Informed by them, shaped by them, interpreted by them, but they cannot be one and the same.

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An impressive statement or declaration.

Was one of your relatives 'a Founding Father', pbmax?

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Originally Posted by mraynrand

If you investigate it, you might find that the Catholic Church didn't spend much time on the issue until challenged on it. But on your balance sheet will also have to be all the churches that accept gay behavior, and all of culture that has driven the issue for the past decades. And if we're going to go back in time, how far back do we get to go? How about Caligula's Rome? Maybe just concentrate on where we are right now and the trend?

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I agree that the here and now is the best measure. I do not know if I can articulate the target. Everything I write read like a Supreme Court Justice writing about pornography.

The trend is encouraging though. And despite the utter uselessness of the phrase, we'll know when we get there.

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Originally Posted by pbmax

I agree that the here and now is the best measure. I do not know if I can articulate the target. Everything I write read like a Supreme Court Justice writing about pornography.

The trend is encouraging though. And despite the utter uselessness of the phrase, we'll know when we get there.

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I'm trying to just stick to analysis where we are with respect to the issue in the NFL. If anyone wants to discuss the underlying issue of gay behavior right or wrong, that's for FYI.

As far as trends go, it is interesting to note that the Duck Dynasty controversy represents the dramatic change in the culture. The issue there was not whether gay behavior is right or wrong, the issue there was whether popular culture (not 'the law') was going to tolerate (not accept) the expression of the viewpoint that gay behavior is sinful (wrong). With the trend among 30 and under being 70-30 in favor of acceptance (not tolerance) of gay behavior, the future seems pretty certain - gay players will be known, accepted and celebrated in the NFL as in society at large.

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Originally Posted by woodbuck27

I'd shake Skinbasket's hand and say 'Right on Mate'.

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Might want to wear gloves foo!

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Originally Posted by pbmax

Well, I am wise enough not to expect the Mardi Gras celebration to be a perfect reflection of life in New Orleans. Many writers have noted that the parades are double-edged swords (there you go). There are always people willing to be publicly confrontational in groups, that is not unique to homosexuals.

And I think that if we tally the efforts to ignore, marginalize, suppress or deny homosexuals and balance it against more recent efforts working toward tolerance and acceptance, the balance sheet is still tilted in favor of suppression. Pray away the Gay is simply the silliest effort on that front (the commercial version, no problem with anyone praying for help, guidance or providence).

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The point being that homosexuality is defined by the specific type of sexual behavior, as the name suggests. I'm not reducing homos to their sexuality, but that is their defined uniqueness. I'm not sure what is strange about that.

As far as your balance sheet goes, I'm struggling to think of even a collection of "anti-gay" efforts that would counter just one episode of Glee as far as influence on popular culture and opinion, not to mention the 402 other television shows that paint homos in a sympathetic, victimized, or otherwise protagonist role (whereas conservatives who would be their antagonist are usually painted as comically ignorant, backwards and square) the Bravo network, a vast majority of outspoken celebrity, academia, and political support, and the Rose Parade, among others. I think you're being more than a little disingenuous on that account.

Anyway, the original point being that pressuring a gay athlete to come out to fulfill the goals of a sociopolitical movement that has more than enough other spokespeople, champions, and pop culture influence seems wrong and degrading.

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Originally Posted by SkinBasket

Anyway, the original point being that pressuring a gay athlete to come out to fulfill the goals of a sociopolitical movement that has more than enough other spokespeople, champions, and pop culture influence seems wrong and degrading.

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for some reason this reminds me of Jim Caldwell, but I can't imagine why

This just in there are straight people in the NFL, nobody talks about that! I'm sick of the gay agenda, you want tolive the gay lifestyle or are born to it rock on but I don't give a shit who you are banging as long as it is a consenting adult.