How Voters Think

[Partial]

No, I don't think a grocery store checker is an acceptable job if you're trying to raise a family by yourself. If you strive to be only a grocery store clerk, than maybe kids aren't for you.

[MJZiggy]

Accidents happen, hon and there's a lot of folks out there that work their tails of for plenty of other minimum wage (or just above) jobs. And they don't have the educational opportunities you did so how the hell are they supposed to survive and live this fanciful life you describe. Hell I HAVE a college education and work experience and I'm having a hard enough time trying to find a job. Imagine for a moment what it's like for some kid born into poverty with uneducated parents. How are they supposed to make your 50K that they should get just for aspiring to it?

[Partial]

If they do well in school, they'll get a scholarship and go to college on uncle sam. I don't believe for a second the opportunity is not there for anyone. It is people's refusal to go out there and grab it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

FairTax = tax hike for the middle class so the fucking rich pay even less. What is fair about that?

I love this kind of ridiculous propaganda.

On the face of it, MadScientist is right. Just a FairTax (which I take to be like a national sales tax) is going to be very regressive. Less wealthy people have to spend a higher percentage on taxable goods. But the FairTax proposals are not so simple, they have some sort of compensation for poorer people. I am open minded to switching to a FairTax.

Easy with the propoganda word, you also stray into that territory.

If you think that somebody making $1M a year pays less taxes than somebody making $30K a year, you are certifiable. Rich people pay far more in taxes than the poor and middle class - in absolute dollars per taxpayer.

talking about absolute dollars is pretty silly.
you can't compare a hundred dollars of taxes paid by a janitor with the burden of $100 on an investment banker.
Don't expect too many people to follow you down the absolute dollar argument.

And they spend more and contribute more to the economy too. They often provide employment opportunities for poor and middle class people. And they are typically less of a burden on government social programs. So let's face it, they are a more valuable economic asset to our country.

ya, true enough

Yet some communist thinking small minded individuals who can't stand the idea of everyone paying their own fair share would just as soon penalize the success of others than have to pry loose a nickel out of their own pocket. They bitch and whine about the wealthy as if anyone who has ever achieved some measure of success must have screwed over some poor slobs to get there. To these people, I suggest they quit wasting their energy on whining and begging and trying to weasel away other peoples money, and go out and earn their own money the old fashioned way. We didn't become the greatest country on the face of the earth by penalizing those who succeed.

You realize that there are a lot of rich democrats, right? A lot of very wealthy people are on the liberal side of the party.

I think you and Rush Limbaugh are exaggerating by a factor of 100 the degree to which liberalism is driven by class envy.

You can't get anywhere talking about these issues in the sort of angry, defensive, accusatory tones that you use. I have more to say but I have to take a dump.

[Scott Campbell]

Zig,

First off, somebody is going to be very lucky to get you as an employee.

I have nothing against grocery store checkers. I would suggest that the vast majority of them are either there by choice, or because of choices they've made in their own lives. For many, they may not be achieving their full economic potential. We shouldn't be holding the government and taxpayers accountable for peoples poor choices. If poverty becomes too easy because of government handouts, more will choose it as the path of least resistance.

[Scott Campbell]

Talking about absolute dollars is pretty silly.
you can't compare a hundred dollars of taxes paid by a janitor with the burden of $100 on an investment banker.
Don't expect too many people to follow you down the absolute dollar argument.

I don't find anything wrong with talking about absolute dollars. It's not sacrilege. They don't charge wealthy folk more for a can of Campbells Soup than they do for poor people just because its less of a burden for the rich guy. Why should it be any different with taxes? I think its crazy how much more wealthy people pay in taxes than those earning less.

[MJZiggy]

If they do well in school, they'll get a scholarship and go to college on uncle sam. I don't believe for a second the opportunity is not there for anyone. It is people's refusal to go out there and grab it.

I think you need to look around you. How is a kid supposed to get good grades if they have no support system at home and they go to a crappy school? Oh, and they live in a lousy neighborhood where it's dangerous to go to school and half the kids that go there are getting pregnant by the time they get out anyway?

I went to a decent high school and got good grades and got rejected for college anyway as I missed ONE class they deemed necessary. I got in on testing. If I hadn't noticed the fine print at the bottom of that rejection letter I might not have a degree now. And the government doesn't just hand you a college education. If it did there would be no discussion about universal education. According to you, these folks should be taking care of themselves and the government shouldn't even be giving out loans, grants or scholarships anyway.

Look around you. Everyone does NOT have equal opportunity in this country. Just because you have options, doesn't mean everyone is as fortunate. It ain't about refusal. It's about having what it takes to get yourself ahead and not everyone does.

[GoPackGo]

This is a neat website. Its a questionnaire that suggests what candidates you share ideals with.

http://glassbooth.org/

[Freak Out]

Talking about absolute dollars is pretty silly.
you can't compare a hundred dollars of taxes paid by a janitor with the burden of $100 on an investment banker.
Don't expect too many people to follow you down the absolute dollar argument.

I don't find anything wrong with talking about absolute dollars. It's not sacrilege. They don't charge wealthy folk more for a can of Campbells Soup than they do for poor people just because its less of a burden for the rich guy. Why should it be any different with taxes? I think its crazy how much more wealthy people pay in taxes than those earning less.

Come on man....with all those wives come kids and that means huge tax breaks for you. Relax and have another Porter.

Your tithing is all pre-tax right?

[MJZiggy]

This is a neat website. Its a questionnaire that suggests what candidates you share ideals with.

http://glassbooth.org/

Fascinating. I get the feeling Partial and I won't get the same result...

[Partial]

If they do well in school, they'll get a scholarship and go to college on uncle sam. I don't believe for a second the opportunity is not there for anyone. It is people's refusal to go out there and grab it.

I think you need to look around you. How is a kid supposed to get good grades if they have no support system at home and they go to a crappy school? Oh, and they live in a lousy neighborhood where it's dangerous to go to school and half the kids that go there are getting pregnant by the time they get out anyway?

I went to a decent high school and got good grades and got rejected for college anyway as I missed ONE class they deemed necessary. I got in on testing. If I hadn't noticed the fine print at the bottom of that rejection letter I might not have a degree now. And the government doesn't just hand you a college education. If it did there would be no discussion about universal education. According to you, these folks should be taking care of themselves and the government shouldn't even be giving out loans, grants or scholarships anyway.

Look around you. Everyone does NOT have equal opportunity in this country. Just because you have options, doesn't mean everyone is as fortunate. It ain't about refusal. It's about having what it takes to get yourself ahead and not everyone does.

By sucking it up and doing what it takes. Kids aren't idiots and don't need to be babied every step of the way throughout life. I agree that failure breeds failure, and that is a problem that isn't going to change whether you throw money, opportunity, or any thing at them. I suggest viewing the documentary ghetto 2 ghetto. It displays this point to perfection!

The fact thats its dangerous to go to school in those neighborhoods proves my point. You can give these people whatever they need to succeed but they'd rather stick with their easy life. After all, it's not the middle class or the upper class that is running around Milwaukee blasting Jimmy John's delivery drivers. It's not the middle class wandering the streets of marquette begging for a handout instead of applying for one of the many jobs available on Wisconsin avenue or any of stores on 27th south of Clyborn. Hell, its not the even the lower class struggling to get by families with parents working two jobs. It is just the people that don't care about anything but themselves and live strictly in that moment in time (no planning for the future).

Sadly, the problem will never get fixed no matter how much money and resources you allocate to it.

[MJZiggy]

You think they have an easy life?

[Partial]

You think they have an easy life?

Walking around begging for money? Hell yes I think they have an easy life. I bust my ass for my money and I do not like feeling threatened or guilted into paying for those mother fuckers to take it easy.

You can bet your ass that if I ever came across hard times I wouldn't be sitting there looking for a handout. I would be walking place to place to place applying for jobs, and following up on them daily until I got my feet back on the ground. I will never, ever, ever accept life kicking me in the ass. I will get right back up and work harder than ever.

[Scott Campbell]

I think you and Rush Limbaugh are exaggerating by a factor of 100 the degree to which liberalism is driven by class envy.

FairTax = tax hike for the middle class so the fucking rich pay even less. What is fair about that?

1) I don't listen to any talk radio. So I suspect you spend a lot more time listening to Rush than I.

2) I don't think I need to exaggerate this blatant example of class envy. The term "fucking rich" pretty much speaks for itself.

[MJZiggy]

You think they have an easy life?

Walking around begging for money? Hell yes I think they have an easy life. I bust my ass for my money and I do not like feeling threatened or guilted into paying for those mother fuckers to take it easy.

You can bet your ass that if I ever came across hard times I wouldn't be sitting there looking for a handout. I would be walking place to place to place applying for jobs, and following up on them daily until I got my feet back on the ground. I will never, ever, ever accept life kicking me in the ass. I will get right back up and work harder than ever.

So all poor people are just taking it easy and if the current systems in place do not help them all, then we should just give up on them and stop giving them government handouts and this is going to solve homelessness and no one will bother you looking for a handout. Interesting argument.

[Scott Campbell]

Come on man....with all those wives come kids and that means huge tax breaks for you. Relax and have another Porter.

Your tithing is all pre-tax right?

Believe it or not, I even get worked up about this kind of language. Take the term "tax break". As if keeping more of my own fucking money is somehow a "break". Gee, thanks.

I take exception to the definition of progressive and regressive taxes too.

[Scott Campbell]

........we should just give up on them and stop giving them government handouts.......

Giving them handouts is only one half of the equation. The other half of the equation is that they've taken that handout money from somebody else who truly earned it.

[MJZiggy]

........we should just give up on them and stop giving them government handouts.......

Giving them handouts is only one half of the equation. The other half of the equation is that they've taken that handout money from somebody else who truly earned it.

So then how does stopping giving them government handouts solve Partial's homelessness problem? He seems to think that they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, which they should, but that's not how the real world is working. We live in the most prosperous nation in the world and are so self-interested that we're not willing to help those that have less opportunity than the upper class? Nice.

I used to work with a combat vet who dove under the work table every time one of the forklifts backfired. Helping him takes money out of the pocket of someone who earned it. Right? You gonna tell me that all the vets that came back from service who DID have free rides in college are all wealthy citizens now?

[Partial]

You think they have an easy life?

Walking around begging for money? Hell yes I think they have an easy life. I bust my ass for my money and I do not like feeling threatened or guilted into paying for those mother fuckers to take it easy.

You can bet your ass that if I ever came across hard times I wouldn't be sitting there looking for a handout. I would be walking place to place to place applying for jobs, and following up on them daily until I got my feet back on the ground. I will never, ever, ever accept life kicking me in the ass. I will get right back up and work harder than ever.

So all poor people are just taking it easy and if the current systems in place do not help them all, then we should just give up on them and stop giving them government handouts and this is going to solve homelessness and no one will bother you looking for a handout. Interesting argument.

No, I don't. Those people who aren't are doing what it takes and hopefully being better parents and getting their kids through school and on to bigger and better things. Interesting topic, out of m group of good friends, the one who's dad was a county social worker with four kids and a mom who stayed at home with the kids, turned out the smartest. Out of that family, they produced a pharmacist, a bio-electrical engineer, a java developer and a high school senior who will be salutitorian.

I think there are some poor people out there that will do what it takes to get by. I think the vast majority aren't willing to put in the work now or didn't earlier in life and missed their opportunity.

[Partial]

Force them to sink or swim on their own. I just dugg an article today about beggars outside Walmart in Portland make 300 dollars a day on average, compared to those inside doing it the right way make that in a week often times.

The reason things don't change is because people always want to take the easy way out.

Cutting them off probably won't change much except take less money out of middle class mike's pocket.