Wisconsin Primary

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Furthermore, whats done is done. Wouldn't it be very unliberal and very irresponsible to pull out now leaving a country in shambles?!?

Definitely, especially with all the progress the country is making.

So you're willing to give up on a bunch of people?!?!? Isn't that what I am saying about all the thugs and gangbangers??!? Christ, how hypocritical is that!

What about kids who don't make as much progress in school? Simply because something takes a little more time and effort we should consider it a lost cause and give up on it?

God damnit, this stuff just pisses me off. You are one hypocritical 13 year old. No wonder you support Obama.

I can understand Zig and her personal agenda that would be fulfilled with an expanded role of federal government, but not you. If anything, your upper middle class family will be the one that suffers.

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Not true. Boarders are far more secure than they were before. They're fighting a war as a pre-emptive strike. It's a way to secure the country.

Partial FTL. If you think this 'war' isn't (pardon the pun) fueled by oil greed, then you need to start mashing you head against something hard.

911 was done by a guy in Pakistan so we invade Iraq. Why? Because they have WPM thats why.

What? We didn't find any? Hmm...well lets hang out for a while and see if we cant dig some up.

Here's a hint, people on TV can and do lie to further their own agenda.

Our intelligence stated that they had Nukes. I realize its easy to play armchair quarterback, but you're just an average joe who works a 9-5, who are you to make a statement regarding national security and the intelligence that they have gathered? Really, you have no more idea than I do or anyone else does who hasn't seen the documents. I, for one, don't immediately think that because our intelligence was wrong that the government is a bunch of liars.

Furthermore, we have plenty of oil of our own. Most of our oil is from Canada anyway. To say that it is about oil is again making an assumption without any basis to back it up. I reiterate, you can't blame bush for following what his intelligence tells him to do. That blame falls solely on Slick Willy and his budget balancing technique of getting rid of national defense.

[BallHawk]

What about kids who don't make as much progress in school? Simply because something takes a little more time and effort we should consider it a lost cause and give up on it?

Um, Partial, the kids that don't make progress in school aren't detonating mentally disabled people in the middle of markets. The kids that struggle in school don't kill innocent civilians. People don't die because the kids struggle in school. Nice comparison.

Yeah, we do need to give up on it. Why we have to go around the world going around the world trying to make every country a clone of us is beyond me. Hoorah Democracy! Democracy for everyone!

If anything, your upper middle class family will be the one that suffers.

And here you come, making assumptions about people's families. I'm far from upper middle class. My Mom works full-time, my Dad is trying to start up his own business. We don't take vacations, we don't drive new cars, and we don't go around spending money on luxuries.

So, please, stop making assumptions about my life, asswipe, because you don't have a fucking clue.

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Um, Partial, the kids that don't make progress in school aren't detonating mentally disabled people in the middle of markets. The kids that struggle in school don't kill innocent civilians. People don't die because the kids struggle in school. Nice comparison.

Yeah, we do need to give up on it. Why we have to go around the world going around the world trying to make every country a clone of us is beyond me. Hoorah Democracy! Democracy for everyone!

Wait wait wait, so you want to leave these people to run around and blow up Americans rather than continue fixing their broken system?

And here you come, making assumptions about people's families. I'm far from upper middle class. My Mom works full-time, my Dad is trying to start up his own business. We don't take vacations, we don't drive new cars, and we don't go around spending money on luxuries.

So, please, stop making assumptions about my life, asswipe, because you don't have a fucking clue.

OK, so I was wrong because your dad quit his job. With that in mind, how can you support bigger government taxing the hell out of your dads business. Get ready to pay double social security (which you have to now as a business owner) and double health care in the future. 50% of the money your pops makes will go right back into the system, paying my high school educated friend 93k a year.

For the record, I did not support going into Iraq, but to say the evidence wasn't there and the government is a bunch of liars is moronic. If you're going to go around calling people liars without any facts supporting your statement, then you should start pointing your fingers at the democrats. After all, wasn't it President Clinton who was convicted of lying under oath.

Clearly they had a reason to do it and it turns out their intelligence was wrong. It happens. If Clinton hadn't cut the defense budget who knows, our intelligence probably would have been more accurate. Regardless, I am all for doing whats necessary to keep myself and my family safe.

[BallHawk]

Wait wait wait, so you want to leave these people to run around and blow up Americans rather than continue fixing their broken system?

They weren't blowing up Americans before we invaded them, were they? The violence in Iraq is resistance fighting. None of the insurgents in Iraq would be capable of pulling off anything close to 9/11.

So, yes, let them run around in their country and let them do whatever they please. They weren't bothering us before we invaded them and if we leave I doubt they'd bother us either. Hell, look at Basra. Although it was under British control, the citizens were overjoyed to see the British pull out. The city went to hell once troops got there. The media spins it to seem like every Iraqi walks up to an American soldier with an outstretched hand to say thank you. I think a large amount of Iraqis wish we were never there in the first place.

OK, so I was wrong because your dad quit his job.

No, that's not the reason you were wrong. You were wrong because you made assumptions. My family has never, at any point, been upper-middle class.

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They weren't blowing up Americans before we invaded them, were they? The violence in Iraq is resistance fighting. None of the insurgents in Iraq would be capable of pulling off anything close to 9/11.

Source??? http://www.on9now.com/video/v429.html

OK, so I was wrong because your dad quit his job.

No, that's not the reason you were wrong. You were wrong because you made assumptions. My family has never, at any point, been upper-middle class.[/quote]

Fine, your middle class or even lower middle class family is what suffers from Democrats in office. Better?

[Harlan Huckleby]

My sense is that the super delegates were created to prevent someone who would have little chance in the general election from getting nominated. But do either Clinton or Obama fall into that category? It's not like Al Sharpton or Michael Moore have a chance at the nomination.

Mark Shields talked about it on PBS newshour, he was a journalist back in 1980 when the rule was instituted. He said the point was to take advantage of wisdom of party elders, act as a check against the scenario you describe. But they are expected to vote their concience in any case. Shields made a forcefull argument that the Obama people are out of line. (And he has been dogging the Clinton campaign in the past. )

I really am not upset about this issue for partisian reasons. If Clinton were to try and get the Florida vote to count, I would refuse to support her too. The integrity of the Democratic campaign looks doomed to me.

The Democratic Party has really screwed up. Ideally, Obama would step forward and say he will accept the independent decisions of the Super Delegates, and Clinton would say that the vote in Florida is null and void. Both candidates should agree on a way to seat MI & FL delegations, be it with a new vote, or a 50-50 delegate split. And all this ought to happen NOW. Things are only going to heat up.

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I'm not trying to be a dick about Iraq because I don't think we should have gone in the first place, but to look at things from one side but not the other is ignorant. Clearly, there was reason to do it according to what we knew. Otherwise they wouldn't be fighting an extremely costly battle with no end in sight.

I am against the war because Congress did not declare war and by that it is unconstitutional. However, with the Patriot act giving big brother more and more power (Which I didn't see any democrats voting against except Russ Feingold (who is actually a decent senator) ) Bush was able to declare war. His approval ratings are shit but you must admit he was put in a lot of very difficult positions as well.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/white...ign_02-15.html

JIM LEHRER: Yes, yes. What about the endorsement or coming endorsement by John Lewis, the Georgia congressman, switching, big supporter of Hillary Clinton, now he's going to switch to Obama? Is that an important move?

MARK SHIELDS: It is an important move. I mean, John Lewis is an icon in the civil rights movement. I mean, he carried the scars himself from being beaten as a civil rights worker in the South in the 1960s.

But I think it's part of a larger argument, where I think the Clintons are on solid ground and the non-Clinton folks aren't. I mean, super delegates are not electors in an Electoral College that have to follow some election returns.

I mean, they are chosen because of who they are, that they have a continuing interest in the party beyond a particular campaign or a candidate, that they're privileged observers, in the sense that they know these candidates better than just I, an ordinary voter, might.

And for that reason, I just think that every -- we knew going in what the rules were and that they were independent operatives. And the idea that somehow now they have to all follow slavishly the election returns I think is just trying to change the rules in the middle of the game.

DAVID BROOKS: I don't agree with that. It's a democracy. It's not an oligarchy. And I think there's going to be a lot of voter resistance to the idea -- if Obama wins the elected delegates and the super delegates swing it to Clinton, I think there will be an enormous amount of voter resistance to that.

Also, I have a Center for Responsive Politics report that Barack Obama has given $694,000 to the campaigns of the super delegates. Hillary Clinton has given $228,000. They've given -- if you look at all these super delegates, they've given $10,000 to this candidate, $19,000 to this candidate.

When you've got money flying around between the candidates, the presidential candidates and the super delegates, I think that will further taint the whole idea.

JIM LEHRER: And Speaker Pelosi said in an interview with Bloomberg today that she believes that the super delegates should represent the voting, in other words, they should not be an elite.

MARK SHIELDS: That isn't the reason they were chosen, Jim. They'll be objective to these rules going in.

JIM LEHRER: I didn't say it.

MARK SHIELDS: I mean, no, these rules have been there since 1980. They've been on the board. The point was to try and get party elders, party leaders into the convention so they wouldn't have to choose between candidates and run to be a delegate.

You can argue with the philosophy behind that, but that's been in the books for 28 years. Now people, the Obama people, want to change it at this point, Speaker Pelosi does?

I mean, David's right. It would leave a terrible, sour taste if, in fact, it appeared that super-delegates altered the outcome that somebody was going to be nominated and they stopped it. But at the same time, let's understand what super delegates are. And they are independent agents.

JIM LEHRER: Speaking of rules, there's also the issue that's now, of course, on the table, could be big time on the table eventually, is Michigan and Florida. How do you feel about that, David?

DAVID BROOKS: In this case, I think the Obama camp is right. I think it's tragedy for Hillary Clinton, because if you had counted those delegates, if those voters, the people who did vote had counted, she'd be well ahead.

But the fact is they were told not to campaign; they promised not to campaign; they didn't campaign; there were not real races in those two states.

And I think Hillary Clinton probably would have won anyway, but, nonetheless, you can't go and include them. Now, there is some talk of trying to get them to revote. That's pragmatically hard to do.

MARK SHIELDS: By the same standard, the rules of the super delegates begin, the rules on this begin. Everybody knew going in, all the candidates, that they weren't going to count. Now you can't pretend you're going to count them.

All I'm asking for is a little consistency on both sides. I mean, the Obama people are right on this one; the Clinton people are right on the super delegates.

[BallHawk]

They weren't blowing up Americans before we invaded them, were they? The violence in Iraq is resistance fighting. None of the insurgents in Iraq would be capable of pulling off anything close to 9/11.

Source???

Common sense.

What are half of coalition forces killed by? IEDs. IEDs can be made cheaply, quickly, and without a large amount of training.

The other half of casualties are mortars, ambushes, etc.

It's all guerrilla warfare. The insurgents in Iraq haven't done anything to prove they are capable of anything more than tactics like the ones mentioned above.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If this report accurately characterizes the Clinton camp's position then they are being unethical too and I will have to give-up on politics completely, start building bird houses.

Clinton, Obama Dispute Roles of Superdelegates
By Peter Slevin and Jose Antonio Vargas
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, February 17, 2008; Page A12

MILWAUKEE, Feb. 16 -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton on Saturday urged the Democratic Party's unpledged delegates to make their own decisions about whether to support her or Sen. Barack Obama, predicting that the battle for the Democratic nomination will continue into the summer.

"Superdelegates are a part of the process. They are supposed to exercise independent judgment," said Clinton (N.Y.), who wants to put into play hundreds of the unelected delegates, as well as large contingents from Michigan and Florida, where the candidates did not campaign.

Clinton trails Obama (Ill.) in the count of pledged delegates, awarded on the basis of primary and caucus results. She said she believes superdelegates, appointed by the party, should not simply anoint the candidate who is leading after the primary season.

Clinton's remarks came as she arrived in Wisconsin ahead of Tuesday's primary. Although she will cut her visit short by a half-day, she is waging a vigorous fight, hoping to blunt Obama's momentum in a state that offers advantages to each.

Obama, who holds a narrow lead in two recent polls, won the last eight Democratic primaries and caucuses, but he trails Clinton in superdelegate endorsements. He contends that superdelegates should back the candidate who wins the most pledged delegates.

Clinton strategist Harold Ickes, himself a superdelegate, told reporters Saturday that the delegates should exercise "their best judgment in the interests of the party and the country."

Ickes also pressed the Clinton campaign's attempt to validate the results of voting in Michigan and Florida. The states were stripped of their delegates after they moved their primaries in defiance of the Democratic National Committee.

Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in either state, and Obama and John Edwards removed their names from the Michigan ballot. Clinton, who beat a ballot slot labeled "uncommitted" in Michigan and won easily in the uncontested Florida primary, contends Democrats in the two states would be disfranchised unless their delegates are seated at the party's convention.

The Clinton campaign opposes a proposal to hold new primaries or caucuses.

"We don't need a redo," said Ickes, who voted as a Democratic rules committee member to penalize the states. He said of Michigan: "The people have spoken there."

Obama told reporters on Friday that he played by the rules, and the rules should be honored.

"Even my 6-year-old daughter would understand it would not be fair for Senator Clinton to be awarded delegates," Obama said, adding without elaboration that there are "probably a slew of different solutions" that would fairly give the delegations a convention role.

Obama and Clinton have traded barbs for days as they competed for Wisconsin's 74 pledged delegates and positioned themselves for the potentially pivotal March 4 primaries in Ohio and Texas. Clinton bought extra time on television stations across the state to broadcast an advertisement criticizing her rival's record, while Obama has responded to Clinton's push with sharp-edged ads of his own.

They crossed paths here on Saturday night at a Wisconsin Democratic Party dinner, speaking back to back to a large crowd.

In a sign of the intensity of the competition, Obama scheduled a rally near Appleton for Sunday after initially planning a day off. He will return to the state on Monday following a brief trip to Ohio.

Late last week, Clinton launched an advertisement that challenged Obama's record on health care and energy policy. She also accused him of refusing to debate her.

"We've had 18 debates. Eighteen debates!" Obama told a crowd in Green Bay, an assertion the campaign also made in a television spot. "But that's what happens when you've been in Washington a long time. Your attitude becomes, 'I'll just say whatever might work to win an election.' "

The Democratic rivals are due to debate each other in Texas on Thursday and in Ohio on Feb. 26.

[SkinBasket]

If this report accurately characterizes the Clinton camp's position then they are being unethical too and I will have to give-up on politics completely, start building bird houses.

You don't have to characterize it. The Clinton camp is pretty open now about wanting Michigan and Florida counted for no other reason than they won them. No reasoning about voter rights, rules, or philosophical differences.

I'll take a green one with a fake chimney and window boxes.

[Joemailman]

For Ickes to claim that the people have spoken when Clinton was the only candidate on the ballot in Michigan requires a special brand of chutzpah. I think it is a big part of the reason why a lot of people don't like the Clintons even when they agree with them politically.

Then again, maybe this is all just posturing. I'm sure there are talks going on in DNC circles right now to try to work out some kind of arrangement with the two parties regarding the Florida and Michigan delegations. When you start out in a negotiation, your first position is always more than what you realistically expect to get.

[Joemailman]

Just a thought... There is also a primary in Hawaii tomorrow. With the weather what it is here, why aren't they in Hawaii? I would be.

[Freak Out]

Nice little interview with Samantha Power who has been working with Obama for awhile. I read her first book a few years ago and have been following her ever since.

If he wins count on her being a part of his administration.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20...wer/index.html

Plus her freckles are hot.

[Joemailman]

My sense is that the super delegates were created to prevent someone who would have little chance in the general election from getting nominated. But do either Clinton or Obama fall into that category? It's not like Al Sharpton or Michael Moore have a chance at the nomination.

Mark Shields talked about it on PBS newshour, he was a journalist back in 1980 when the rule was instituted. He said the point was to take advantage of wisdom of party elders, act as a check against the scenario you describe. But they are expected to vote their concience in any case. Shields made a forcefull argument that the Obama people are out of line. (And he has been dogging the Clinton campaign in the past. )

I really am not upset about this issue for partisian reasons. If Clinton were to try and get the Florida vote to count, I would refuse to support her too. The integrity of the Democratic campaign looks doomed to me.

The Democratic Party has really screwed up. Ideally, Obama would step forward and say he will accept the independent decisions of the Super Delegates, and Clinton would say that the vote in Florida is null and void. Both candidates should agree on a way to seat MI & FL delegations, be it with a new vote, or a 50-50 delegate split. And all this ought to happen NOW. Things are only going to heat up.

Mark Shields is a good guy. Howard Dean would be wise to listen to him. Shields is a liberal who has always maintained a certain sense of independence as evidenced by the fact that he is one of that rare breed: A pro-life Democrat.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If anybody wants to understand SuperDelegates, listen to this radio show:
http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/20...218_a_main.asp

But don't everybody listen at once, it will swamp their server.

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http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Econo...4298321&page=1

Take a look at that and still tell me we should still give handouts to the poor. Just goes to show you that even with nothing but 25 dollars and a gym bag, you can give yourself a good life. In my opinion, he was successful because he wanted to be successful. The same cannot be said for many, many others.

[Harlan Huckleby]

[Freak Out]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Economy/story?id=4298321&page=1

Take a look at that and still tell me we should still give handouts to the poor. Just goes to show you that even with nothing but 25 dollars and a gym bag, you can give yourself a good life. In my opinion, he was successful because he wanted to be successful. The same cannot be said for many, many others.

We should still help the poor.
Just because there are slackers in the world doesn't mean we stop helping people.