Wisconsin Primary

[Joemailman]

The Dems have been incompetent, but it is the Republicans' fault that there is a mess in Florida.

ya, sort-of true.

The worst villian is Howard Dean (and the people who authorized him) for imposing such draconian punishments. DEan left the party vulnerable to mischief from the Florida Republicans. Dean's ego got in the way, he could have devised a more sensible compromise, something like what the Republicans did. He behaved like Joe Stalin, enforcing mass punishment on people who had nothing to do with a procedural fight.

Agreed. When I first heard that Florida and Michigan were to be stripped of their delegates, my immediate reaction was that I couldn't believe that Dean would let it come to that. But he did.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Listened to Bill Bradley, one of BHO's leading surrogates, on the Sunday news shows for people who don't go to church. He said that a revote would violate the spirit of the earlier agreement that MI & FL should not count, and splitting the delegates 50-50 is the only fair way.

Oh, and he also denounced Hillary for her saying "Obama is a Muslim as far as I know." I'm not making this up.

I thought the Clintonites were the undemocratic dirty birds.

Several MI legislators are quoted as saying they aren't going to approve a revote unless both candidates are onboard. I'll be very surprised if Obama allows a MI revote. That would likely spur a FL revote too. Obama is damaged FAR more by June revotes in two major states than he would be by some spinnable mudslinging over "who disenfranchised the voters." No revote means the Clinton nomination goes from remote to dead.

[BallHawk]

But, Harlan, you heard what Nita, the Clinton Supporter, was spewing out of her mouth. Both spew their bullshit in equal volume.

[Harlan Huckleby]

But, Harlan, you heard what Nita, the Clinton Supporter, was spewing out of her mouth. Both spew their bullshit in equal volume.

I thought that lady was a nothing, a toothless tiger. I'd be interested in what points you heard that she scored against Obama. Did she mentioned his pink penis, validating the gay tryst accusation?

She went along with equating Geraldine Ferraro with Jeremiah "the Bullfrog" Wright - "lets just move on." Dopey. She didn't challenge Bradley's line about Hillary tarring Hussein. But forget the mudslinging, she wasn't even any good as a positive advocate. Hillary needs to forget her old friends and get some of her new friends on TV, like Rush Limbaugh.

BTW, I heard that a deal is being brokered in Florida to give Hillary some delegates and make the problem go away. I doubt she will go for that, hell, even if they agreed to fully count the January vote it doesn't help her enough. Clinton needs both MI & FL primaries in June to gain momentun prior to the convention. (Obama won't let it happen.)

[Harlan Huckleby]

Kristol was a big Obama promoter up until the moment that Obama became the likely nominee.

Generation Obama? Perhaps Not.
By WILLIAM KRISTOL
Published: March 17, 2008

Sunday evening, Ben Affleck and Jennifer Garner held a “Generation Obama” fund-raiser at Boston’s Rumor Nightclub. In case you’re not up on the Boston club scene, I should tell you that Rumor “brings together the sexiest and hippest people from around the globe” and “has raised the bar in Boston’s night life” (if Rumor may say so itself). Presumably, Ben and Jennifer raised the bar a notch further on Sunday.

Which is fine. Obama supporters are allowed to have fun. And celebrities are entitled to headline fund-raisers. But one has the sense that elsewhere in this great land the bloom is coming off the Obama rose.

For one thing, it’s becoming clear that Obama has been less than candid in addressing his relationship to his pastor, Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., of Chicago’s Trinity United Church of Christ. For example, Obama claimed Friday that “the statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity.”

It certainly could be the case that Obama personally didn’t hear Wright’s 2003 sermon when he proclaimed: “The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, not God bless America, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. ... God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human.”

But Ronald Kessler, a journalist who has written about Wright’s ministry, claims that Obama was in fact in the pews at Trinity last July 22. That’s when Wright blamed the “arrogance” of the “United States of White America” for much of the world’s suffering, especially the oppression of blacks. In any case, given the apparent frequency of such statements in Wright’s preaching and their centrality to his worldview, the pretense that over all these years Obama had no idea that Wright was saying such things is hard to sustain.

This doesn’t mean that Obama agrees with Wright’s thoroughgoing and conspiracy-heavy anti-Americanism. Rather, Obama seems to have seen, early in his career, the utility of joining a prominent church that would help him establish political roots in the community in which he lives. Now he sees the utility of distancing himself from that church. Obama’s behavior in dealing with Wright is consistent with that of a politician who often voted “present” in the Illinois State Legislature for the sake of his future political viability.

The more you learn about him, the more Obama seems to be a conventionally opportunistic politician, impressively smart and disciplined, who has put together a good political career and a terrific presidential campaign. But there’s not much audacity of hope there. There’s the calculation of ambition, and the construction of artifice, mixed in with a dash of deceit — all covered over with the great conceit that this campaign, and this candidate, are different.

Which brings us back to the “Generation Obama” event. If you go to the Obama campaign Web site and click on “people,” you’ll see 14 categories of people you can choose to hook up with — women, labor, people of faith ... and “Generation Obama.”

What is Generation Obama? It’s a “grass-roots movement led by young activists with a simple goal: electing Barack Obama the next president of the United States of America,” the Web site says, adding that “you and other members can utilize the many talents of our country’s next great generation in support of the campaign in a variety of meaningful ways.”

So in fact, “Generation Obama” is just a fancy name for young activists for Obama. But the (remarkable) conceit is this: The “next great generation” of Americans can appropriately be called “Generation Obama.”

Now I’m actually a believer in the next generation, which one might call the 9/11 generation. Many of its members seem more serious and impressive than we baby boomers were when our elders were foolishly praising us, 40 years ago, as the best-educated, most idealistic generation ever. Many of the best of this young generation are serving their country — either in the military or otherwise. Some are in politics, working for various causes, liberal and conservative, and for various candidates, Democrats and Republicans. But surely there’s something creepy about a campaign claiming them as “Generation Obama.”

With no particular dog in the Democratic fight, many conservatives have tended to think it would be good for the country if Obama were to win the Democratic nomination, freeing us from the dreary prospect of the return of the House of Clinton. Now I wonder. Might the country be better off with the cynicism of the Clintons than the conceit of Obama?

[digitaldean]

The Dems have been incompetent, but it is the Republicans' fault that there is a mess in Florida.

ya, sort-of true.

The worst villian is Howard Dean (and the people who authorized him) for imposing such draconian punishments. DEan left the party vulnerable to mischief from the Florida Republicans. Dean's ego got in the way, he could have devised a more sensible compromise, something like what the Republicans did. He behaved like Joe Stalin, enforcing mass punishment on people who had nothing to do with a procedural fight.

if the FL Democratic committee was that concerned about not having the delegates seated and not able to get the GOP legislature to compromise, they had the legal right to hold a caucus for just the Democrats.

Michigan's situation is sheer stupidity, since the Dem. gov., Jennifer Granholm, could have easily avoided this.

In future,the government could have a national primary day and allow a window (say 45 days) to campaign. No front loading primaries or caucuses. Set aside a legal national holiday so all could vote. Businesses could afford to close or allow workers to take part of their day off to vote. It's not a perfect solution, but maybe it might cut down on some of this wrangling.

[Joemailman]

But, Harlan, you heard what Nita, the Clinton Supporter, was spewing out of her mouth. Both spew their bullshit in equal volume.

I thought that lady was a nothing, a toothless tiger. I'd be interested in what points you heard that she scored against Obama. Did she mentioned his pink penis, validating the gay tryst accusation?

She went along with equating Geraldine Ferraro with Jeremiah "the Bullfrog" Wright - "lets just move on." Dopey. She didn't challenge Bradley's line about Hillary tarring Hussein. But forget the mudslinging, she wasn't even any good as a positive advocate. Hillary needs to forget her old friends and get some of her new friends on TV, like Rush Limbaugh.

BTW, I heard that a deal is being brokered in Florida to give Hillary some delegates and make the problem go away. I doubt she will go for that, hell, even if they agreed to fully count the January vote it doesn't help her enough. Clinton needs both MI & FL primaries in June to gain momentun prior to the convention. (Obama won't let it happen.)

Can we maybe just nuke all the surrogates? They seem to be the problem here.

[The Leaper]

Howard Dean really comes across as an ass in interviews.

I don't think it is just interviews...

[Harlan Huckleby]

It appears that the idea of a mail-in revote has died in Florida.

I'm relieved, I had visions of hundreds of Joemailmen holding ballot envelopes up to the light and misplacing Hillary votes.

[Joemailman]

Probably not. My union, I'm sorry to say, has endorsed Hillary.

[The Leaper]

No revote means the Clinton nomination goes from remote to dead.

Not so...nothing will be decided until the convention. The superdelegates can change their mind at any point up until then...and with serious questions popping up regarding Obama's judgment and background, it isn't ridiculous to think that they would find Clinton more electable.

Don't overlook Puerto Rico's change from a caucus to a primary either...Clinton will garner a lot of votes in PR in a primary and could challenge Obama in terms of the popular vote when all is said and done even without MI/FL.

Either way, I don't think the Dems will be riding a wave of goodwill into the election as it looked like they would just 2 months ago.

[The Leaper]

In future,the government could have a national primary day and allow a window (say 45 days) to campaign. No front loading primaries or caucuses. Set aside a legal national holiday so all could vote. Businesses could afford to close or allow workers to take part of their day off to vote. It's not a perfect solution, but maybe it might cut down on some of this wrangling.

I agree with most of what you say, but 45 days to campaign is hardly enough time IMO.

I think a better idea is to break the nation into 4 regions and hold regional primaries. Hold one primary at the end of FEB, MAR, APR and MAY. That still gives you 5 months between the end of the primaries and the Nov election.

I also would prefer if the regional primaries were held on a Saturday rather than taking a holiday during the week.

[Harlan Huckleby]

No revote means the Clinton nomination goes from remote to dead.

Not so...nothing will be decided until the convention. The superdelegates can change their mind at any point up until then...and with serious questions popping up regarding Obama's judgment and background, it isn't ridiculous to think that they would find Clinton more electable.

it's far fetched that the Obama march to nomination could be derailed.

Dems are not particularly upset about Obama's church, Obama could probably choose Jeremiah Wright as a running mate. Obama's challenge will be in general election.

Clinton needs the additional bump of press hype and popular vote in FL and MI in June to help her cause. I seriously doubt that would be enough anyway to swing enough Superdelegates.

Obama won. I hate Nancy Pelosi's guts for unethically changing the rules by declaring the Superdelegates null and void. Perhaps Nancy will take up a torch and join Governor Wilder's riot if Clinton gets the nomination. Pelosi is probably accurate in declaring the race over, but it's not her role to change the rules to favor her prefered candidate.

I think it's time for me to become a Republican. My hatred for Nancy Pelosi, Bill Bradley, Randi Rhodes, JoeMailman, NAtional Public Radio, Wisconsin Public Radio, all black columnists, moveon.org, the Daily Kos, every voter under 30, and all the other unethical surrogates is pushing me out of the Democratic party.

[The Leaper]

it's far fetched that the Obama march to nomination could be derailed.

Dems are not particularly upset about Obama's church, Obama could probably choose Jeremiah Wright as a running mate. Obama's challenge will be in general election.

Sure Huck, but the superdelegates will vote almost exclusively based on electability in the GENERAL ELECTION. If Obama's numbers head-to-head with McCain start taking a plunge, do you really think the superdelegates are still going to give Obama the nod...especially if Hillary wins PA and closes the popular vote difference to what is a virtual tie?\

That's my point. The superdelegates care about WINNING IN NOVEMBER...they could care less what has happened in the primaries to this point.

[swede]

In future,the government could have a national primary day and allow a window (say 45 days) to campaign. No front loading primaries or caucuses. Set aside a legal national holiday so all could vote. Businesses could afford to close or allow workers to take part of their day off to vote. It's not a perfect solution, but maybe it might cut down on some of this wrangling.

I agree with most of what you say, but 45 days to campaign is hardly enough time IMO.

Forty-five days would be enough if what you mean by campaigning is defining your political positions and elucidating a platform.

I should think it would even be enough time to communicate to the voters any number of meaningless platitudes that conceal one's actual agenda with a few days left over for pandering in key states.

[Joemailman]

It appears that the idea of a mail-in revote has died in Florida.

I'm relieved, I had visions of hundreds of Joemailmen holding ballot envelopes up to the light and misplacing Hillary votes.

Sounds like it will be a compromise backroom deal. Hillary will get half of the delegate plurality she would have gotten if delegates had been apportioned based on the primary vote. That is what MSNBC is saying.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It appears that the idea of a mail-in revote has died in Florida.

I'm relieved, I had visions of hundreds of Joemailmen holding ballot envelopes up to the light and misplacing Hillary votes.

Sounds like it will be a compromise backroom deal. Hillary will get half of the delegate plurality she would have gotten if delegates had been apportioned based on the primary vote. That is what MSNBC is saying.

There are about 12 parties to this negotiation, and I would guess 11 of them find this to be just fine. Hillary needs a vote in June much more than a few delegates. The way I see it, (cue Jeremiah) THEY'RE RIDIN HER DIRTY!

[Harlan Huckleby]

No revote means the end of the line for Hillary 08.

Queen Pelosi and every Obama voice (except Joemailman) says they won't abide Hillary in the VP chair.

I saw a survey of Democrats that showed only 20% would support a shared ticked regardless of who was on top. 20% would not vote democratic party if Obama was on top. 40% would not vote democratic if Hillary was on top. It was an online survey, skewed towards zealots and punks, but still.

It's over. Time to think of the future.

[Joemailman]

When you go to your first Democrats For McCain rally, be sure to say hi to Hillary.

On second thought, there may be hope for Hillary yet.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar..._to_boost_gop/

[Harlan Huckleby]

Hey, it occurs to me that I'm a McCain man, and I cast a cross-over vote for Hillary. So I can't be too critical of others.

I doubt that the Republican mischief makers had a huge impact, but they had some effect. Some Republicans voting for Obama now will abandon him in the fall too, even if they are a degree more sincere.

NY Times reports that Obama will likely oppose a revote in Michigan, the rationale being that some of his supporters voted republican in the primary, and are therefore ineligible for a revote. There is some justification to this, but mainly he is killing the revote because it benefits his opponent. A guy from the MI legislature says they will wait a day or two for his buy-in.