"No Child" leaves children behind

[CyclonePackFan]

The thing that really scares me isn't that children are being left behind, it's that enough children AREN'T being left behind. Some of the things I'm starting to see in my old high school and here in college are scaring the shit out of me. It seems to me that secondary education has two BIG problems.

1.) Schools are passing through students who should be failing.
2.) Students that should be just "passing" are getting inflated grades.

I fear that we've become so obsessed with making our youth feel good about themselves we're decreasing the quality of the education. I always hear from candidates that they want "more scientists and engineers", students proficient in math and science. They're going to get it, but what good are a ton of new engineers if THEY AREN'T QUALIFIED TO BE ENGINEERS? I had an opportunity to TA a course last semester, and it struck me that students just want to be "told" the answer to a question. They don't want to put the effort into finding the solution themselves, and they got the hell blown out of them on the exams when they had to take basic principles and apply them to a problem they hadn't seen before. Personally, I blame the internet. When I was in grade school, if I wanted to do a report, I had to go hunt through my shelf of Encyclopedias to get good information, and actually research. Now you can just go to Wikipedia.

When I went home to Wisconsin for Christmas, I opened up my local newspaper. First thought... "Jesus Christ... the entire middle school is on the B-honor roll or better!" What's worse, they've opened a "Renaissance" school for high schoolers. Students who can't hack it (not just those who have learning issues) in the standard high school are relegated to the Renaissance school, where they get to go though fluff classes and literally, get an "A" for the week if they show up every day. As a result, the graduation rate for the high school skyrockets, and the Renaissance students are still allowed to graduate with a standard diploma.

What I'm wondering is...why don't we start giving incentives to fail students? The more students who fail (within limit - it doesn't do any good to just let teachers fail everyone and get incentives), the more money the school gets. Make the "average" a "C" again, and schools that do have lots of students who need help get more money.

[/rant]

Jesus, that was long. Sorry, this subject just really pisses me off.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't know, HH. Barack is starting to look like an unstoppable force and they say the democratic majority is going to expand in the house and senate.

Something might acctually get done in the next presidential term. Will it be for the better? I don't know, but there is a good chance that there is a major shake up in health care.

Ya, things will get done. The Democrats are going to expand access to private health insurance. Will this work? We'll see. This is an evolutionary change, not a revolution.

Is the problem the insurance companies? Their priority is to make profit, not serve the public. Can their behavior really be reformed? I'm a little skeptical, but its worth a try, since this is the politically realistic approach right now.

I think ultimately a more drastic change is needed. But we'll see.

[Harlan Huckleby]

When I went home to Wisconsin for Christmas, I opened up my local newspaper. First thought... "Jesus Christ... the entire middle school is on the B-honor roll or better!"

Sounds like you live in Lake Wobogan.

What's worse, they've opened a "Renaissance" school for high schoolers. Students who can't hack it (not just those who have learning issues) in the standard high school are relegated to the Renaissance school, where they get to go though fluff classes and literally, get an "A" for the week if they show up every day.

I know an alternative school that works VERY well, the only problem is the waiting list to get in. I knew two problem kids who went through it, and both ended up getting PHDs. There is a need for a school that gives lost kids some extra attention.

I agree that the inflated grades are terrible though, if that is indeed the case. And on a related note, its RIDICULOUS that special ed kids get the same diploma as other students.

[MJZiggy]

I thought they used to give out a "life skills" diploma for special ed kids. I guess it depends on how special your ed needs to be. I think M3 should run the schools. Teach and demand. It's like they try the teach part and forget the demand...

[CyclonePackFan]

I know an alternative school that works VERY well, the only problem is the waiting list to get in. I knew two problem kids who went through it, and both ended up getting PHDs. There is a need for a school that gives lost kids some extra attention.

I don't have a problem with alternative schools for students who need special attention, in fact, I think it's awesome. I will never fault a kid who gives it everything he/she has. Just because a child has a problem learning doesn't mean he/she's not brilliant.

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

[packinpatland]

I have three daughters.......two graduated in the top 3% of their class. One of those is now attending Yale. My third daughter is one of those 'special needs' kids. I've had to fight equally hard for both forms of 'gifted'.

In retrospect.......I should have fought harder for my special daughter.........the other two have the capabilities to make their own way. Unless you've been in the position to see both ends of the spectrum.....the saying 'walk in my shoes' comes to mind.

Sorta rambled there..........it's a hard..........

[Harlan Huckleby]

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

But these ARE kids with problems. If they can function in an alternative school, and get used to learning SOMETHING, this is far better than kicking them out of school.

Not that an alternative school is going to save every messed-up, drugged-out kid. Some kids simply have to be expelled. But damn, I know they work for some kids.

[MJZiggy]

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

But these ARE kids with problems. If they can function in an alternative school, and get used to learning SOMETHING, this is far better than kicking them out of school.

Not that an alternative school is going to save every messed-up, drugged-out kid. Some kids simply have to be expelled. But damn, I know they work for some kids.

I'm getting the impression that CPF is not upset about the existence of the program as much as the fact that just for showing up, they're awarded the same diploma as everyone else without the knowledge that the mainstream kids have gained, and therefore without the capability to function after graduation be it in college or in a job.

And Harlan, you're right. They do work well for those kids who put in the effort and still struggle for the understanding of the concepts they're supposed to be learning. It would be nice if all parents took as much responsibility for their kids' education as some do. Too bad they don't.

[CyclonePackFan]

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

But these ARE kids with problems. If they can function in an alternative school, and get used to learning SOMETHING, this is far better than kicking them out of school.

Not that an alternative school is going to save every messed-up, drugged-out kid. Some kids simply have to be expelled. But damn, I know they work for some kids.

Different perspectives, I guess. I'm sure the school helps a lot of students. I'm basing my judgment off my experience in high school. From my perspective, the purpose of the school wasn't to help those who really needed it, it was a place to throw out the bottom part of the class. My "class size" was officially around 190 people. However, around 250 were at the graduation ceremony, which is what we started with as freshmen. To me, throwing 25% of the class to Renaissance reeks of an attempt to skew statistics.

[CyclonePackFan]

I'm getting the impression that CPF is not upset about the existence of the program as much as the fact that just for showing up, they're awarded the same diploma as everyone else without the knowledge that the mainstream kids have gained, and therefore without the capability to function after graduation be it in college or in a job.

And Harlan, you're right. They do work well for those kids who put in the effort and still struggle for the understanding of the concepts they're supposed to be learning. It would be nice if all parents took as much responsibility for their kids' education as some do. Too bad they don't.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly, very eloquently put.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm getting the impression that CPF is not upset about the existence of the program as much as the fact that just for showing up, they're awarded the same diploma as everyone else without the knowledge that the mainstream kids

There is no disagreement on this point.

Cyclone resents the alternative schools for other reasons as well.
He complained that troubled teens are sent to alternative schools:

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

I say that a decent percentage of kids who are disruptive or not doing their homework can be turned around. They need some sort of positive experience at school, some interest to work on, and alternative schools are good at doing this.

[HarveyWallbangers]

No child left behind was Bush's invention. He campaigned on education reform and then gave us this turd which infuriated educators and parents alike.

Mostly infuriated educators--who tend to be overwhelmingly lefties. Anything he did would have been derided. If he had said that money doesn't fix our education woes and said local governments would have to fix the problem (which is the truth), he would have been derided even more. Yet, we have schools that have a college-like curriculum (my wife's aunt's kid has the choice of pilates and yoga for phy. ed. at Apple Valley, MN; he still gets average grades) and LCDs in the hallways.

[MJZiggy]

I'm not worried about which hand is feeding the pot provided the end result is acceptable which in this instance it isn't. Yet I've said this before about other things, just because one solution doesn't work doesn't mean you throw in the towel. You try another solution and another until you come up with the one that produces the result you want.

[CyclonePackFan]

Cyclone resents the alternative schools for other reasons as well.
He complained that troubled teens are sent to alternative schools:

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

I say that a decent percentage of kids who are disruptive or not doing their homework can be turned around. They need some sort of positive experience at school, some interest to work on, and alternative schools are good at doing this.

Again, I think it's just a difference in perspective. My problem isn't with the existence of the program, it's the way it's used. I don't think throwing every student who is disruptive to the same place is the answer. Give them tutoring, a mentor, one-on-one time, after-school activities, something! If two students get into a fight, you throw them to the same school, and they can just get into a fight again, you might as well just send them to juvi. Don't just sweep the problem under the rug to make the room look better. What effect does it have on the other students? Are we really doing a service to the student who wants to do better but can't by lumping him or her with someone who just doesn't care?

[CyclonePackFan]

Getting off the topic of alternative schools, This thread reminded me of an article I read a while back. I suppose one of my biggest problems with our education problem is the lessons we're teaching our kids that have nothing to do with the subject (i.e. - about life)

I'm sure most everyone has read Charles Sykes "Lessons they don't teach you in school" (a popular chain mail commonly attributed to Bill Gates). If not:

Rule 1: Life is not fair; get used to it.

Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something before you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3: You will not make 40 thousand dollars a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice president with a car phone until you "earn" both.

Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. He doesn't have tenure.

Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger-flipping; they called it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you screw up, it's not your parents' fault so don't whine about your mistakes. Learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way paying your bills, cleaning your room, and listening to you tell them how idealistic you are. So before you save the rain forest from the blood-sucking parasites of your parents' generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers but life has not. In some schools they have abolished failing grades, they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This, of course, bears not the slightest resemblance to anything in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off, and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.

Rule 10: Television is not real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

With that in mind, here's the article:

http://www.kcci.com/news/15052147/detail.html

New School Rule: Skip Homework Still Get Grade

POSTED: 8:47 am CST January 15, 2008
UPDATED: 3:50 pm CST January 15, 2008

COUNCIL BLUFFS, Iowa -- Students who don't hand in homework won't receive a zero anymore under new rules for a new semester that started on Monday at Council Bluffs Community Schools.

Students and teachers are encouraged to use the new grading techniques. School officials said that under the old regime, a student who received a zero had a tough time recovering a grade in the course. Administrators said that by making the failing gap smaller, students still have a chance to bounce back and pass at the end of the semester, even after a mistake.

Superintendent Dr. Marth Bruckner said she has seen many students start a new year rebelling.

"We don't want to send the message to kids, as we have done in some classes, that after you have failed in this class for four weeks, you have no chance of passing at the semester," Bruckner said.

In Council Bluffs, each grade range has constituted 10 points, so an A is a grade from 90 to 100, a B is from 80 to 90 etc. An F has ranged from zero to 60.

Last week, Bruckner said she visited with high school staff and recommended using similar intervals, so that on the 100-point scale, an F would range from 50 to 60 instead of zero to 60.

"Some teachers are really wrestling with, 'I don't want to give them 50 out of 100 points,' and to those teachers I say, 'Fine, you don't have to. Go to a different grading scale, like 5-4-3-2-1-0,'" Bruckner said. "We're not saying give them half credit. We're saying, give them the F. Just don't kill them with the F."

Parents are getting used to the new recommendations.

"I have an 8- and a 10-year-old," said parent Jodi Brown. "And as they excel through school, I would rather have them be held accountable for their actions. If they don't turn in an assignment, I would think they deserve a zero for not completing it."

"I think it's great to give them a second chance to make up for it," said Julie Michalski. "I don't want to see anyone fail, but they need to be held accountable for their work."

Right now, the new grading idea is only recommended for the high schools -- Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson. Use is left to teachers, but Bruckner said the hope is that departments will work together so that everyone agrees on the same scale.

Gretna uses something Superintendent Dr. Kevin Riley called the "do your work" policy. Students who don't hand in something, or don't pass with a grade of 70 percent or greater, must come in before and after school to complete and pass that assignment. Riley said the policy has been used for 25 years, and in that time, the failure rate has decreased from 10 percent to just a handful of failing grades at the high school. He said the policy has also cut down on behavior issues.

What does everybody think? What concerns me, as I said, is the lesson this kind of change teaches kids. If I don't pay my credit card bill this month, the company isn't going to say to me, "It's OK, we'll pay half of it", my credit rating is going to go down the toilet. If I don't show up for work, should I get half-pay, or will I be fired?

[MJZiggy]

That may be the dumbest thing I've seen all week. I'm all for giving kids a chance to bring their grades up--BY MAKING UP THE WORK!!! What in blazes are these people thinking?

[LL2]

It's another Clinton liberal lefty idea that didn't work. .... Now, the other Clinton wants a national health care solution that will fail miserably. While it sounds like a great idea, and warm and fuzzy like "No Child Left Behind," it will cost the gov't and businesses billions yet fail.

You didn't know that NCLB was a Republican idea. And then your comment on health care suggests you have not a clue what the Democrats are proposing with healthcare.

There are going to be changes in health care. If you think the current system is OK, you have your head in the sand. Whatever the Democrats get through is likely to be a modest experiment, more change will be needed.

Ooops! You got me. Wasn't it Clinton who started the whole thing with the "It takes a village to raise a child" thing?

[Harlan Huckleby]

My problem isn't with the existence of the program, it's the way it's used. I don't think throwing every student who is disruptive to the same place is the answer. Give them tutoring, a mentor, one-on-one time, after-school activities, something! If two students get into a fight, you throw them to the same school, and they can just get into a fight again, you might as well just send them to juvi.

Not every kid is going to work-out in an alternative school.

Don't just sweep the problem under the rug to make the room look better.

Alternative schools are not a place to dump/hide problem kids. They give them more personalized attention and another chance.

Are we really doing a service to the student who wants to do better but can't by lumping him or her with someone who just doesn't care?

Alternative schools are more disciplined than regular schools, even though the curriculum might be more flexible. They don't allow kids to be disruptive. Plenty of REALLY smart kids there too. Lots of really smart kids have social problems, or don't learn well in a traditional classroom.

[hoosier]

It's another Clinton liberal lefty idea that didn't work. The name of the bill has a warm and fuzzy feeling to it, but the gov't doesn't know how to solve things. It's parents responsibilities to make sure their kids know how to read, write and have math skills. My son is only 2 and we have been working with him on basics like numbers, alphabet, colors, shapes, etc. I want my kids to go to good schools, but to think the schools will be an end all solution to my kids education needs is naive.

Now, the other Clinton wants a national health care solution that will fail miserably. While it sounds like a great idea, and warm and fuzzy like "No Child Left Behind," it will cost the gov't and businesses billions yet fail.

Historical revisionism at its best.

[hoosier]

Or you could do what the grade school my daughter went to. She, being special needs, didn't take any of the tests. At the time, we were told 'you really don't want to put her through that...' What they were really saying is...she'll lower our test scores.

I don't know what other states do but, here in CT, we get a % of slot revenue from the Indian casinos. On average it's between 17-20 million a month, that money was originally earmarked for education......

Did they put her in an inclusionary environment, in special ed classes, or some other model?