Recession coming

[hoosier]

SS was created because most people are too foolish to know how to invest that 6.2%, and create themselves a nice retirement nest egg.

You must have been sleeping during HS history class. SS was created as result of the great depression, as an effort to create an economic safety net in times of economic crisis. It was seen as a way of creating a kinder, gentler form of capitalism that would in turn make socialism less appealing to the middle and lower classes.

In the absence of any really existing threat to capitalism, it's understandable that an increasing number of otherwise thoughtful people no longer understand the concept of a safety net, or perhaps just don't see the need for one. The big bad wolf has gone away, and there's no longer any tangible alternative to capitalism that could put the fear into the upper strata of American society.

[The Leaper]

I understand the option of a safety net...but like all tightrope walkers, I prefer to have the CHOICE of whether or not to use one.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I understand the option of a safety net...but like all tightrope walkers, I prefer to have the CHOICE of whether or not to use one.

Social Security wouldn't work if people could opt out, it would crumble. And many opt-outers would inevitably be left vulnerable (for a variety of reasons, including poor investing, bad health, economic downturns), and they would just become wards of the state anyway.

BTW, Social Security is not just for old people, it also pays out to the disabled.

It's NOT a private option where everyone has a choice, its socialism. We are not a pure capitalist economy, we have a balance of socialism mixed in. There are pluses and minuses to capitalism, pluses and minuses to socialism. Every successful country in the world has a balance of the two.

[Harlan Huckleby]

SS was created because most people are too foolish to know how to invest that 6.2%, and create themselves a nice retirement nest egg. Like Partial I'd rather have that 6.2% to invest on my own, and not collect a SS check. My parents do pretty well financially, and about 7-8 years ago my father got a letter from the SS administration saying that he has fully paid into his SS. So, in essence what he has paid into SS for the last 8 years he will never see a dime of. His SS check will be the same no matter what. He's basically paying SS taxes so others can collect a check - I guess this is Harlanesque.

it sounds like your dad did well financially, and has subsidized others.
And you're right, I don't have any problem with that.

I think what needs to be done is to remove the fiction that social security is a private policy for each person. Social Security should just be funded out of the general treasury, and the social security deduction abolished.

I get where you & Partial are coming from. You think everyone should be responsible for themselves, and it will all turn out better for you. IT undoubtably will be better for you, at least in a narrow sense. But there was experience and wisdom that went into the idea of pooling resources to take care of everyone. There are consequences to letting everyone fend for themselves that you aren't seeing.

[The Leaper]

Social Security wouldn't work if people could opt out, it would crumble.

It is also crumbling when everyone is opted in...so what is your point? So, I'm now paying into a system I will never see a dime from, and taxpayers are still going to have to save a bunch of people who did nothing for retirement but rely on SS.

Socialism is a failure...because greed and power corrupts.

[Freak Out]

SS is not crumbling. The rest of our economy is for a number of different reasons.....but SS is not. Granted it could be in better shape if the Executive branch and Congress would stop trying to destroy the country with wild over spending.....especially with regards to "the war" and the military budget.

...and the dollar just continues to get hammered into worthless garbage.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Socialism is a failure...because greed and power corrupts.

You're right, socialism is a failure. But so is capitalism in its purist form. That's why we temper our capitalist system with pieces of socialism that work.

I think Yakov Smirnoff explained the difference between socialism and capitalism very well. "Capitalism is a system where man exploits man. Under socialism, it's just the opposite."

[The Leaper]

You're right, socialism is a failure. But so is capitalism in its purist form. That's why we temper our capitalist system with pieces of socialism that work.

I guess 2 wrongs make a right.



Socialism is a failure, so we should use it to prop up capitalism? What kind of messed up logic is that?

[Harlan Huckleby]

You're right, socialism is a failure. But so is capitalism in its purist form. That's why we temper our capitalist system with pieces of socialism that work.

I guess 2 wrongs make a right.



Socialism is a failure, so we should use it to prop up capitalism? What kind of messed up logic is that?

Socialism and capitalism are both failures when applied in a pure, ideological manner. Monopolies have been broken up because they reeked havoc. Without labor laws market forces would send us back to child labor and 80 hour work weeks. We have many social programs that have been shining successes, and that hold us together.

You want to get rid of public education? Should we let disabled people beg on the streets?

[Zool]

Should we let disabled people beg on the streets?

Only in the poor neighborhoods where people choose to not get a higher education.

[The Leaper]

You want to get rid of public education? Should we let disabled people beg on the streets?

Well, our education system SUCKS...so why not get rid of it?

Disabled people will beg on the street in just about any system...unfortunately, governments rarely look out for those who can't help themselves. That is true under any form of government.

The problem with socialism is that is removes any hope altogether...the government controls every aspect of your life and you are bound within a class structure. We see that in education...where standards are plummeting and most parents have no way to get their kids a strong education because we've allowed the government to monopolize it rather than a corporation. I don't see how anyone can claim that either choice is better.

The problem with America is not capitalism or democracy...it is that people really don't give a damn until something affects them, then they scream bloody murder. In that kind of scenario, nothing works well. Our populace is self-centered and fame-obsessed...we care not about the troubles or concerns of others, unless doing so does something good for us.

No form of government can help that.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

You want to get rid of public education? Should we let disabled people beg on the streets?

Well, our education system SUCKS...so why not get rid of it?

Disabled people will beg on the street in just about any system...unfortunately, governments rarely look out for those who can't help themselves. That is true under any form of government.

The problem with socialism is that is removes any hope altogether...the government controls every aspect of your life and you are bound within a class structure. We see that in education...where standards are plummeting and most parents have no way to get their kids a strong education because we've allowed the government to monopolize it rather than a corporation. I don't see how anyone can claim that either choice is better.

The problem with America is not capitalism or democracy...it is that people really don't give a damn until something affects them, then they scream bloody murder. In that kind of scenario, nothing works well. Our populace is self-centered and fame-obsessed...we care not about the troubles or concerns of others, unless doing so does something good for us.

No form of government can help that.

I'd listen to what you have to say..but, honestly, you aren't a celeb so what validity do you have?

Get back to me when you are famous.

[gex]

Keep fighting the good fight Harlan, we, as a society, need to take care of each other. Anybody who doesn't think so, may karma bite 'em in the ass.

[GrnBay007]

BTW, Social Security is not just for old people, it also pays out to the disabled.

This is a pet peve of mine. The truly disabled people should be receiving benefits............but OMG, there are SO many people playing this system. I see it everyday and it makes me sick!! I've seen so many people apply for disability for their kids. It will get rejected the first and second time. If they are persistent they will get the benefits on the 3rd try. Once they are qualified, look out. I've seen adults who are collecting disability benefits since they were kids and when you ask them why, they can't even tell you the reason. Believe me all, this is where your fight should be....not the 70 year olds collecting SS benefits.

[digitaldean]

Pure capitalism or pure socialism does not work, period. Capitalism unchecked festers greed and the trusts Teddy Roosevelt broke up. Socialism supports a nanny state type of theology. Take a look at France, why do you think Sarkozy is trying to break some of it up???

The key ingredient that is missing is ....COMMON SENSE. We should means test Social Security. If you have a bunch of money stashed away, you shouldn't be getting any SS money. If you have no funds at all, you deserve a full gov't pension.

The gov't part of the public education system is 1 leg of the 3 legged stool. There are a ton of problems with the public system. Too much social engineering like handing out condoms at the pre-high school level. Preaching "tolerance" to alternative lifestyles, but NO tolerance towards those who are Christians. That's why I send my kids to a parochial grade school and high school.

The other 2 legs are the kids and the parents. Unfortunately, there are too many parents that do not pick up their load.

In my school district and neighboring districts, public education has too much middle management types and too few teachers. There is too much waste in that aspect. Hopefully that would cut some of the instances of teachers having to buy their own supplies.

I am all for holding teachers to a higher standard and grading their advancement off how their students do. BUT the parents should share a TON in this as well.

[Scott Campbell]

Keep fighting the good fight Harlan, we, as a society, need to take care of each other. Anybody who doesn't think so, may karma bite 'em in the ass.

It takes a village. Or does it take the Village People?

[Harlan Huckleby]

The key ingredient that is missing is ....COMMON SENSE. We should means test Social Security. If you have a bunch of money stashed away, you shouldn't be getting any SS money. If you have no funds at all, you deserve a full gov't pension.

I think this is a tricky issue. If you means test, than SS becomes like welfare, and people resent it as a government handout.

I assume SS is taxable income, so at least people of means are paying a portion of it back.

I agree with you in principle, I just wonder how you get it done politically.

[Partial]

Dean, what is to stop me from blowing all my money on material goods before 65 so I get a full pension, then?

[The Leaper]

The key ingredient that is missing is ....COMMON SENSE. We should means test Social Security. If you have a bunch of money stashed away, you shouldn't be getting any SS money. If you have no funds at all, you deserve a full gov't pension.

So we should reward people for not having the common sense you describe and saving money for retirement by letting the taxpayers save for them?

I have no problem helping those who are unable to help themselves due to physical or mental condition...or who have been dealt a bad situation but are willing to work at overcoming it.

I have a huge problem helping those who have every ability to do exactly what I have to do for my family, but choose to live on a handout instead because they are lazy.

[digitaldean]

Social Security is not what I'd call a lottery payment. If a person throws their money away and wants to live like a pauper on SS that's up to them. I think most people will want to live on more than SS.

There should be a way where means testing will work. I mean it for those who are extremely well off, they don't need it.

Back in the 80's, Sen. Warren Rudman formed the Concord Coalition to help whittle down the national debt. One if his main points is to means test SS. So it's not really hairbrained idea I just came up with.

Politically feasible in today's entitlement mentality? Maybe,maybe not.