Fitna: Controversial Film On Islam

[Kiwon]

One could also takes quotes from the bible, and juxtapose christians intimidating people at abortion clinics, or bombing federal buildings in Oklahoma.

HH, go ahead and make the movie. Sounds like you're off to a good start.

Which sayings by Jesus are you going to use? Now don't let the fact that Jesus never picked up a sword or advocated violence like Muhammad did stop you. Jesus never actually killed people (He kept them from being killed and raised the dead), but maybe you could say that He metaphorically killed them (you know, death to self and being spiritually born again).

Okay, you've got two images so far - people publicly demonstrating to stop the death of children and a domestic terrorist act by a white supremacist as a protest against the government.

Hmmmm.....it's a little murky here, these images just don't have the same power as kidnapping and beheading people (the beheading part is done in the abortion clinic) and people choosing to jump from a 100-story building to avoid burning to death.

I don't mean to criticize but you've got to use better examples if you want your moral equivilance argument to succeed. It doesn't have to be perfect, I mean, liberals or "progressives" don't care that much about facts, but, you know, the average person has some common sense. He's not as easily swayed by specious analogies that feed one's biases.

But, whatever you do, don't stop. Just keep thinking out loud. You'll come up with those examples that prove your premise. I know it’s not easy. The facts just aren't there, but keep at it.

[swede]

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/C...one-way_street

Although the differences between wahabbi Muslims and Christians are fuzzy or unimportant and trite to some posters, one difference of some significance is that converts from Christianity to the Muslim faith do not require bodyguards.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/C...one-way_street

OH MY GOD. What a right wing nut. "And why is CAIR encouraging other Muslims to run for office in state, local and federal races? Does CAIR have an agenda that could lead to triumphs of a different sort? "

The Muslims are going to destroy us from within!!!

Although the differences between wahabbi Muslims and Christians are fuzzy or unimportant and trite to some posters,

You're comparing Christianity in general with the most fundamentalist Muslim movement in the world. (One that is relatively small, compared to all the muslims in the world.) Excuse me, you aren't making the comparison, "some posters" are.

one difference of some significance is that converts from Christianity to the Muslim faith do not require bodyguards.

I don't beleive this characterization, at least as applied to most muslims in our country.

Christianity has an unbelievably bloody record. Just look at European history and weep.

I can read a newspaper. It does seem like the Muslim world is going through a giant convulsion. They have many more extremists.

Violence is not inherent to Islam, in fact I beleive this is a 20th century outburst.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Which sayings by Jesus are you going to use?

I don't know about Jesus, but do I get to use the old testament?

I don't mean to criticize but you've got to use better examples if you want your moral equivilance argument to succeed.

I agree that there are many more extreme muslims running around the planet at this particular juncture in history. Two or three hundred years ago, picture was quite the opposite. The violence our generation sees has NOTHING to do with religious teaching or philosophy. Its a political/cultural conflict within the Muslim world.

The scriptures of Christianity, Judaism, Islam are GREATLY overlapped. If somebody wants scriptural justification for violence, people in all three religions can and have found it.

[Kiwon]

I don't know about Jesus

That's pretty obvious.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I know enough about his teachings to say you give him a bad name with your hate mongering. With friends like you, Jesus don't need no enemies.

[mmmdk]

I am buying less and less of the mild manner peaceful and loving Muslims.

We are coddling muslims in this country alone. Allowing them the right to prayer in schools and public sanctuaries, I mean while other religious activity is being stamped out, but yet the right of muslims to carry on their religous beliefs are being protected.

Yep, there are about 5 million Muslims living in this country. And yet the greatest domestic terrorist attack in the history of this country was by a white Christian male who had served in our military. So maybe judging people by stereotypes isn't such a great idea.

I'm with Joe yet radical religious people are a menace to the world.

[Deputy Nutz]

I am buying less and less of the mild manner peaceful and loving Muslims.

We are coddling muslims in this country alone. Allowing them the right to prayer in schools and public sanctuaries, I mean while other religious activity is being stamped out, but yet the right of muslims to carry on their religious beliefs are being protected.

Yep, there are about 5 million Muslims living in this country. And yet the greatest domestic terrorist attack in the history of this country was by a white Christian male who had served in our military. So maybe judging people by stereotypes isn't such a great idea.

I'm with Joe yet radical religious people are a menace to the world.

I guess I will be more tolerating when I hear more muslims denouncing the actions of the muslim extremists, instead they attack this film, and although it is screwed to view muslims in a very dim light in my opinion they don't do enough to condemn the abuse of civilization by these muslim extremist. If it wasn't for muslims decapitating people held hostage, and their acts of terrorism this film would have probably never been made.

[texaspackerbacker]

I see nothing racist or wrong in any way to have or display bias against Muslims. We are in the early stages of a clash of civilizations with them that if lost, would result in a new dark age of tyranny and depravity for the world--including America if they got their way.

While obviously, all Muslims are not bad, there should be a presumption that they are that must be overcome.

A poll was taken in Palestine the other day asking whether people approved of murder of Israeli civilians. An incredible 84% said yes. That's the kind of people we are dealing with. I wonder what the percentage would be if a similar poll was taken of Muslims in America. Not as high, undoubtedly, but near or over 50% wouldn't surprise me.

One only needs to remember the large scale favorable demonstrations in Muslim cities after 9/11 to realize the despicable mindset we are up against. This is clearly a good versus evil world, and they are the primary evil that we, as good, are facing.

[Freak Out]

A poll was taken in Palestine the other day asking whether people approved of murder of Israeli civilians. An incredible 84% said yes. That's the kind of people we are dealing with.

What was it Jesus said (I think about a Romans pack?)?
Walk a mile in another's shoes?

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's obvious that many Muslims are violent, far too many Muslims look the other way, and violent Muslims use scripture to justify their actions.

My point is that it is not evidence of their religion being inherently violent or inferior. You have to look historically to see that this is a problem of our era.

Very foolish to demonize Muslims for being Muslims. Just plays into hands of extremists.

[texaspackerbacker]

While their religion may not be "inherently evil", the deformed and barbaric philosophy and agenda of the followers of that religion--I would argue the large majority of the adherents of that religion--have indeed, evolved into something very evil.

Over at the JSOnline forums, we had a Muslim poster some of you may remember--TH87 (I wonder which if any forum he ended up at). The guy was articulate and decent, and even though I disagreed with him on most things, I had great respect for him. His position was that the Koran and basically the entire Muslim religion had been co-opted and taken over by the radical clerics who promote the unspeakable barbarism and evil which nowadays characterizes Islam. When I asked him how he explained the apparent approval of so many Muslims--probably a huge majority--for the horrors perpetrated by a comparative few, he stated that intimidation had a lot to do with it--the decent Muslims being afraid to speak out against what he saw as relatively few committing and promoting acts of terror, etc. I don't really buy that idea, but I do hold it out as having some degree of credibility--mainly because the person stating it had credibility.

Whether they have majority support, or merely a majority intimidated into a pretense of support, the Islamic fundamentalists CLEARLY have an agenda of inflicting the horrors of Sharia Law on as big a segment of the world's population as possible. And if that agenda succeeds, all that is good and decent and now considered civilized goes down the toilet. Tyranny, poverty, depravity in many different forms would become the way of life--as they already have--in any country or area dominated by Islam.

THAT is why I contend that we are in a clash of civilizations with Islam that if we do not win, could damage and devolve common decency and enjoyment of life in the world to a thing of the past.

[Harlan Huckleby]

We can't win a clash of civilizations with Islam. Are we gonna occupy Indonesia and Pakistan? Ultimately, Islam has to cure itself. They are going through their own internal conflict that we can't solve. We can only poke at it from the margins.

I urge you to refuse to have a clash of civilizations. And that means keeping a cool head and not demonizing all Muslims.

Religion really has very little to do with the problem.

[Scott Campbell]

We can't win a clash of civilizations with Islam. Are we gonna occupy Indonesia and Pakistan? Ultimately, Islam has to cure itself. They are going through their own internal conflict that we can't solve. We can only poke at it from the margins.

I urge you to refuse to have a clash of civilizations. And that means keeping a cool head and not demonizing all Muslims.

Religion really has very little to do with the problem.

Well, you sound a little like the French prior to Hitler's Blitzkrieg. Sometimes waiting is not much of a strategy.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm not advocating inaction. Caution, realism. Like in Pakistan, we have to let them deal with the problem, as frustrating and slow as that may be.

And especially we have to be careful about the rhetoric. The extremists goal is to get us to define the conflict as a battle of civilizations or religous war. I'm beginning to suspect Kiwon & Tex are terrorist agents, a sleeper cell.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm not advoocating a comprehensive preemptive war against Islam when I talk about "clash of civilizations". Certainly, we shouldn't provoke the LEAST VIRULENT Muslim country with the biggest population of Muslims in the world, Indonesia. Also, we should do all we can to cultivate the Islamic countries who are fairly loyal to us.

When I talk about "clash of civilizations", however, I mean more on a micro- level. We are a Christian country--a country of Judeo-Christian values and heritage. Instead of de-emphasizing that and getting all pc--politically correct, we need to highlight what WE ARE in comparison to what THEY ARE--what WE stand for--freedom, compassion, humanity, prosperity, and enjoyment of life, compared to what THEY stand for--tyranny, hate, lack of compassion and humanity, poverty, and austerity.

Too many people in this country, and probably a bigger percentage than that in Christian Europe think of Islam and Muslims as morally equivalent and merely some kind of a good neighbor in the world--instead of a vile force that has a goal of inflicting its horrendous Sharia Law on everybody.

And as for the idea that we can't win a "clash of civilizations" in a military sense: Picture a massive Muslim uprising--all 600-700 million or so of them--a jihad to inflict Islam on as much of the world as possible. Then picture a Christian force--aside from America--which could nuke 'em and win the war by ourselves if need be, aside from the Eurowimps who probably would roll over and cave to the Muslims, aside from China and Japan, which probably wouldn't have a dog in this fight, and what do you have? Well, you have about a half billion machismo Christian warriors from Latin America, backed by nearly a billion hard charging Hindus from India who would like nothing better than stomping Muslims. And top it off with over 200 million Russians paranoid about all those Muslims on their southern border. I kinda like those odds. Of course it wouldn't happen unless most of those Muslims were ready to meet their 72 virgins, because that would inevitably be the result.

[Tarlam!]

I have a Muslim buddy who reminded me of the Spanish Inquisition days when we discussed the radical fundamentalists in his religion.

He draws a comparison based on the age of either religion at the time of both fundamentalist periods.

Islam is what, 600 years younger than Christianity?

We're gonna have to wait awhile for them to catch up, I guess.

[Harlan Huckleby]

ya, Spanish Inquisition came about the same time Catholics and Protestants were taking turns torturing each other in England.

I think the Muslim world in the Mideast (where the problem lies) is reacting to rapid changes in rest of world that threaten their way of life. Especially things like role of women, materialism.

Somebody mentioned the Wahabis (sp), the extreme fundamentalist sect coming out of Saudi ARabia and spreading to Pakistan. I think that sect started around 1890. Maybe in reaction to Industrial Revolution? It spread widely around 1960s. Point is the craziness is relatively new, 20th century, not from traditional religous teachings.

[Kiwon]

We can't win a clash of civilizations with Islam. Are we gonna occupy Indonesia and Pakistan? Ultimately, Islam has to cure itself. They are going through their own internal conflict that we can't solve. We can only poke at it from the margins.

That's right. Things won't really cool down until moderate Muslims confront and control their own radicals.

I urge you to refuse to have a clash of civilizations. And that means keeping a cool head and not demonizing all Muslims.

Another valid point. Maybe HH took his meds today. He's actually making sense.

Religion really has very little to do with the problem.

That's one of the stupidest statements ever uttered.

Yhello....40 virgins...instant trip to Paradise....."Allah akbar" as people are beheaded....

Oh yeah, that has more to do with potato chips than religion.

HH, have you ever thought about visiting a nearby nursing home and sharing your unique perspective with the residents there? There are a lot of lonely people who would appreciate just having someone to talk with. You don't have to make sense, just smile and be friendly. You're a good man for the job.

[Harlan Huckleby]

When the catholics and protestants fought for hundreds of years in England or Ireland, was it about religion? No. People were divided along religous lines, but it was about power. If the groups were divided by whether they liked chocolate or vanilla ice cream, or had brown or blue eyes, things would have played-out just the same.

The conflict with Japan in WW2 was not over the japanese people's devotion to their emperor. It played a role, but was not the cause.

The conflict with Islam is not about Islam or Christianity. We're not trying to convert them to our religion or vice versa. There sometimes is tension involving missionaries, but that is rare. Islam is being used as a tool by those who have other interests in fomenting a war. I think the fundamentalists want to seize power in countries with Islamic populations, and shield outside cultural influences.