Obama's Balls OK?

[Scott Campbell]

I am for low business taxes and free trade.

I thought you were for high taxes and free handouts?

[bobblehead]

collective moral responsibility of government and the public policy which would be a corrective action for the lack of good choices that often led to their irresponsibility.''

Collective moral responsibility? I wish he would stop pushing HIS morals on me. And anyway, what about the separation of Church and State?

he means that we as a people have a moral obligation to help uplift the poor and struggling. This is value at the center of Christianity, and also shared by other religions as well as non-religous people.

I agree fully with this. We are morally obligated to create a society where the downtrodden can get jobs and support their families. We are morally obligated to get out of the way of those that create and innovate and raise the standard of living of everyone.

That is what you meant isn't it??

I believe it is possible to be pro-business and be in favor of insuring that all boats are lifted. For instance, the biggest problem we have right now is inferior public education, especially in poor areas, and fixing that is not anti-business. I am for low business taxes and free trade.

so you support tommy thompsons school voucher plan that would break the teachers union?

[Harlan Huckleby]

so you support tommy thompsons school voucher plan that would break the teachers union?

i didn't realize that was the goal of school choice.

[mraynrand]

so you support tommy thompsons school voucher plan that would break the teachers union?

i didn't realize that was the goal of school choice.

It may not be the goal, but it may be a consequence. Still, answer the question - are you in favor of school vouchers?

[Harlan Huckleby]

answer the question

after answering it, will you be shouting "AGAIN! AGAIN! AGAIN!" until I break?

I am against school vouchers for the purpose of union busting or weakening public education.

I am for school vouchers, or any other approach, that can be shown to bring results. The outcome of Tommy Thompson's experiment has been mixed.

The only problem I have with vouchers is that they should not be alloted in dollar amounts. They should be given as "tuition for one semester", or some such thing. Otherwise they just become a partial subsidity for attendance at expensive private schools that are still going to be out of reach of many families.

[HowardRoark]

answer the question

after answering it, will you be shouting "AGAIN! AGAIN! AGAIN!" until I break?

I am against school vouchers for the purpose of union busting or weakening public education.

I am for school vouchers, or any other approach, that can be shown to bring results. The outcome of Tommy Thompson's experiment has been mixed.

The only problem I have with vouchers is that they should not be alloted in dollar amounts. They should be given as "tuition for one semester", or some such thing. Otherwise they just become a partial subsidity for attendance at expensive private schools that are still going to be out of reach of many families.

I agree with your assessment that it will not change the upper end (upper end meaning highest tuition) of the education system. That’s how the math would work. But on the other side of the equation, it surely would wash out the worst of the teachers. You mentioned earlier that you are for rising tides that raise all ships. This is certainly one instance that would accomplish your goal.

As far as "tuition for one semester", I think that would actually make the system worse. Without some kind of currency, a market for education, how can the “Invisible Hand” reward the best and punish the worst educators?

I have never understood why intelligent, well spoken friends of mine who are teachers in the government school system are so afraid of a free market in their business. Clearly they would end up better off, but yet they are afraid. Why the fear?

[Harlan Huckleby]

As far as "tuition for one semester", I think that would actually make the system worse. Without some kind of currency, a market for education, how can the “Invisible Hand” reward the best and punish the worst educators?

Whether the voucher is for "a semester tuition" as opposed to a fixed dollar amount has nothing to do with the Invisible Hand you speak of. Although it does create another problem (cost control) that I haven't thought through.

I have never understood why intelligent, well spoken friends of mine who are teachers in the government school system are so afraid of a free market in their business. Clearly they would end up better off, but yet they are afraid. Why the fear?

Vouchers have the potential to make public schools even worse. If the public schools are largely abandoned, they become a struggling repository for the people who can't leave, for one reason or another. Private schools don't serve the VERY expensive demands of special needs students, for instance. Some poor people may not be able to afford the transportation and hidden costs of a private school, even with vouchers.

Public schools are a core of our society. They need to be fixed, not abandoned. IF closing some public schools and having a greater mix of private schools helps improve quality, great. But we should be very skeptical. The disparity in education in this country is a disgrace. I doubt that vouchers are targeted to close this gap. We have experiments underway, lets see what the results show.

[Scott Campbell]

Public schools are a core of our society. They need to be fixed, not abandoned.

I see. So how many of your own kids have you put in public school?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Public schools are a core of our society. They need to be fixed, not abandoned.

I see. So how many of your own kids have you put in public school?

Not your shining moment.

Harlan and the rest of us childless adults have PAID for your children to attend public schools.

Just say thank you. It is the least you can do.

[Scott Campbell]

Just say thank you.

I thank you Tryone. Society thanks you. For not having children.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Just say thank you.

I thank you Tryone. Society thanks you. For not having children.

Keep up the snide remarks and Ty will impregnate many white women.

Ty is just waiting to fulfill his destiny as a shiftless, worthless black man.

[Scott Campbell]

Just say thank you.

I thank you Tryone. Society thanks you. For not having children.

Keep up the snide remarks and Ty will impregnate many white women.

Ty is just waiting to fulfill his destiny as a shiftless, worthless black man.

For all your bragging to Ziggy about that big imaginary black penis of yours, it's kind of ironic that you're barren.

[MJZiggy]

I have never understood why intelligent, well spoken friends of mine who are teachers in the government school system are so afraid of a free market in their business. Clearly they would end up better off, but yet they are afraid. Why the fear?

Welcome to the forum, Howard.

I think it could boil down to the fact that they have no way of knowing what the free market will determine a good teacher to be. By what criteria are they judged? Parents who aren't paying attention to their kids' education now aren't gonna magically start when they get vouchers, so there's no guaranteeing that the teachers will get the support necessary for them to excel.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Just say thank you.

I thank you Tryone. Society thanks you. For not having children.

Keep up the snide remarks and Ty will impregnate many white women.

Ty is just waiting to fulfill his destiny as a shiftless, worthless black man.

For all your bragging to Ziggy about that big imaginary black penis of yours, it's kind of ironic that you're barren.

White women can't handle the big imaginary penis.

A blessing, yet a curse.

[MJZiggy]

Just say thank you.

I thank you Tryone. Society thanks you. For not having children.

Keep up the snide remarks and Ty will impregnate many white women.

Ty is just waiting to fulfill his destiny as a shiftless, worthless black man.

For all your bragging to Ziggy about that big imaginary black penis of yours, it's kind of ironic that you're barren.

White women can't handle the big imaginary penis.

A blessing, yet a curse.

Well, we could, if it weren't quite so...imaginary...

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Just say thank you.

I thank you Tryone. Society thanks you. For not having children.

Keep up the snide remarks and Ty will impregnate many white women.

Ty is just waiting to fulfill his destiny as a shiftless, worthless black man.

For all your bragging to Ziggy about that big imaginary black penis of yours, it's kind of ironic that you're barren.

White women can't handle the big imaginary penis.

A blessing, yet a curse.

Well, we could, if it weren't quite so...imaginary...

Ty always knew you were a size queen.

Ty is so over you...you are too skinny. Skinny white girls with no asses aren't for ty.

[HowardRoark]

As far as "tuition for one semester", I think that would actually make the system worse. Without some kind of currency, a market for education, how can the “Invisible Hand” reward the best and punish the worst educators?

Whether the voucher is for "a semester tuition" as opposed to a fixed dollar amount has nothing to do with the Invisible Hand you speak of. Although it does create another problem (cost control) that I haven't thought through.

I have never understood why intelligent, well spoken friends of mine who are teachers in the government school system are so afraid of a free market in their business. Clearly they would end up better off, but yet they are afraid. Why the fear?

Vouchers have the potential to make public schools even worse. If the public schools are largely abandoned, they become a struggling repository for the people who can't leave, for one reason or another. Private schools don't serve the VERY expensive demands of special needs students, for instance. Some poor people may not be able to afford the transportation and hidden costs of a private school, even with vouchers.

Public schools are a core of our society. They need to be fixed, not abandoned. IF closing some public schools and having a greater mix of private schools helps improve quality, great. But we should be very skeptical. The disparity in education in this country is a disgrace. I doubt that vouchers are targeted to close this gap. We have experiments underway, lets see what the results show.

I think we might be having a little Rashomon issue here. From my perspective, there will always be so called “inequities” in the system; there will still be $30,000/yr. prep schools, and the average kid will still never be able to afford going to that school. That is not the issue. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but it seems to me that a goal of your “fix” would be equal access for all kids. I don’t believe that is possible. The issue is that the education system seems to not be working too well.

How would you determine the dollar value of a generic “semester tuition” voucher. Could I then throw in some of my own money and go to a better school? If not, what will keep the real good teachers from leaving the profession if they don’t think the pre-determined value of a “voucher” is adequate? This system would push out the good teachers, and further diminish the system.

And as far as the public/government schools being largely abandoned, who cares? That means they were not educating our kids properly. On the flip side, if government schools are all that are left, why would I care? The market will determine who best educates our children.

BTW, Tyrone. You don’t pay for my kids, but thanks for keeping those hooligans off the streets in Scottsdale.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Mr. Roark,

If your kids attend public schools then Ty pays for them. If they attend private schools..then good for you. Keep them away from the minorities and lower socio economic types. Not a good idea to have them mingle with the lower classes.

Please have them attend private college as well. We need more white people attending them. THey are becoming inundated with non deserving minorities..taking up space that could be reserved for rich ne'r do wells and legacies.

P.S. Ty pays for your children's teacher training regardless of school. I'm also quite confident that if they attend a private school and have any low income children atttending..ty is paying. And, Ty is quite confident that your children's school is applying for IDEA grants.

Unless of course rich folks don't ever have special needs kids...or if they do they send those types to public school.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think we might be having a little Rashomon issue here. From my perspective, there will always be so called “inequities” in the system; there will still be $30,000/yr. prep schools, and the average kid will still never be able to afford going to that school.

ok fine. but i sure as hell am not OK with vouchers being applied towards 30K prep schools.

a goal of your “fix” would be equal access for all kids. I don’t believe that is possible. The issue is that the education system seems to not be working too well.

A good education for ALL kids is certainly the goal. Why are you for vouchers? To improve education for half the kids? The critical educational problem is in the lower third economically.

How would you determine the dollar value of a generic “semester tuition” voucher. Could I then throw in some of my own money and go to a better school? If not, what will keep the real good teachers from leaving the profession if they don’t think the pre-determined value of a “voucher” is adequate? This system would push out the good teachers, and further diminish the system.

I am completely confused by what you are saying. Why would you be throwing in extra money - the idea is that the voucher pays full tuition. Now, there would have to be some limit on it. And if you want to send your kid to some extremely expensive prep school, you'll have to do it without a voucher.

MAybe you can explain how vouchers will work in your ideal view. Would your plan allow all kids from very poor areas to attend good private schools? That sounds like quite an expensive undertaking!

And as far as the public/government schools being largely abandoned, who cares? That means they were not educating our kids properly. On the flip side, if government schools are all that are left, why would I care?

I think you are being completely unrealistic about the degree to which private schools can replace public schools. What is your plan to accomodate the HUGELY burdensome special needs students? Currently private schools just don't take them.

[bobblehead]

answer the question

after answering it, will you be shouting "AGAIN! AGAIN! AGAIN!" until I break?

I am against school vouchers for the purpose of union busting or weakening public education.

I am for school vouchers, or any other approach, that can be shown to bring results. The outcome of Tommy Thompson's experiment has been mixed.

The only problem I have with vouchers is that they should not be alloted in dollar amounts. They should be given as "tuition for one semester", or some such thing. Otherwise they just become a partial subsidity for attendance at expensive private schools that are still going to be out of reach of many families.

Personally I'm against vouchers. I'm against subsidies in general. All vouchers are going to do is raise the price of private schools. The only good I see from them is that they might bust the teachers union and display the flaws in public education.

Incidentally I don't have kids so it doesn't affect me much, I don't mind paying for public schools though, I merely look at it as paying back my own education. I think the schools are a mess now and its hard to see how they are going to get better with politicians using school money as the pawn for gov't spending.

I saw a liberal democrat proving her own point by accident the other day. She was quite disgusted that half the schools in the nation were below average. The humanity of it. But I give her credit, she did accidentally convince me that our schools are inadequate.

The problem with the voucher concept is this. How do you decide who gets them. Some kid in a piss poor school gets one and goes to a great school. OK, now how about the kid in a merely below average or average school. Why should kid one get to go to a better school than kids 2 and 3?