So, I've only been around this site for, I don't know, a year? Less? Not sure. But I gotta ask- Is this Woodbuck guy for real? Is he always like this?
If so, I think I'm a fan. He's hilarious.
So, I've only been around this site for, I don't know, a year? Less? Not sure. But I gotta ask- Is this Woodbuck guy for real? Is he always like this?
If so, I think I'm a fan. He's hilarious.
Well, I don't know about this. Let's ask Tannenbaum how Favre brought the Jets locker room together. Let's ask Zigi how the FavreWatch fiasco THIS season has helped bring the Vikings locker room together.Originally Posted by packerbacker1234
I think I have to disagree with your assessment that Favre brings locker rooms together.
Chuck Norris doesn't cut his grass, he just stares at it and dares it to grow
No Man. Favre had to want to get far away from TT, as it was obvious to me and other's here that TT was not on the same page as Brett Favre RE: win now.Seriously Woodbuck, we have seen the timelines. We have discussed the terms of Favre's "retirement" several times. Your inability to even acknowledge the possibility that Favre retired and wanted out as opposed to being pushed out by TT is mind-boggling.Given that 'in fact' that's true. What bearing does that have in terms of today? Brett Favre was in effect put out to pature by the Pacxker organizationb and even bribed by the Packers organization to retire from the game he loves.
Favre has integrity. He turned his nose up to that bribe Patler. How many men do you know that would turn down some $20 Millions $'s to retire from whatever? Just take that money and disappar. The fact he refused that offer stands Favre up even bigger in my estimation of that man as someone very special.
I as a Canadian love the NHL and always have followed my favourite team and player (s) ' with this ' as a fact of life in terms of any players career:
When any team trades a star player to another team, or otherwise waives that player or releases him. That player tries his best to shove that decision in his former teams face. To make the former team pay for not believing in him. Often he gets his revenge as he's justly motivated to do so. That's part of being a professional,, and all that which is related to a star or very talented players ego.
It was time for TT to get Favre out of sight and move forward with Aaron Rodgers. We saw that coming the day Aaron Rodgers was drafted. I certainly saw that coming and was concerned that Brett Favre wouldn't set significant personal records in a Packer uniform. Well he did all of that but his main incentive was not records. Rather win another Super Bowl. He came so close again in a Packer uniform and failure never dulled his appetite. The man wants to win very badly.
Try ... try ... try, until you succeed.
Once that was done ( culminating in that heart wrenching loss to the NY Giants ). I wanted Favre out of Green Bay. It was obvious to me and some others that we are not seeing around here these days. That there were certain frustrations that seperated the philosophies and intents of Brett Favre and TT. They were on different pages and worlds apart in terms of winning, now and 'YES' despite that ' Brett Favre and the Packers ' came close.
That's an old argument as well, and 'the fact is', and that we enjoy today. Is we're considered contenders to go to a Super Bowl. That's moot considering ' the fact of life ', that it'll be left on the field of play. Our success Vs any teams. We have alot of teams to play and defeat besides the Vikings.
In terms of Brett Favre and his present incentives and direction.
TT's personality and ' the will to win ' is now moot. Favre is free of TT. He certainly wants to demonstrate again this season that he had plenty in the tank when TT went in another direction. See above and National Hockey League players.
By the way the record will clearly demonstrate that personally I've supported that move of Rodgers over Favre by TT and the Packer organization. It was time. Given that was done. What Brett Favre has ever done to support his needs is moot. He's no longer a Packer and free as a professional to make his best deal and with a team he considers a serious contender.
He's not a traitor. Favre is a man on a mission as a Pro atlhlete, and 'of course' that's possibly counter productive to our hopes, and only as he proves himself worthy of playing at a high level and winning the big games. He's fallen down many times but despite all that many NFL fans love him in the game. He's arguably, the most exciting player to ever play the QB position in the NFL.
Aaron Rodgers is our QB now and it's too simple. Suport Aaron Rodgers and certainly use some wisdom in terms of hating Brett Favre. That's just wrong to sick IMO.
Disagreeing with me won't change my position.
GO PACKERS!
So here is that whole issue as I witnessed it as a member of Packerrats and I will deliver this to you, Bossman641 to try to give you adequate if not maximum respect.
Bossman641. Does any of us at Packerrats or elsewhere, really know exactly what transpired back in the weeks leading up to the 2008 Draft? In terms specifically or not related to Brett Favre coming back as our starting QB? Have we officially heard both sides of that issue or 'the TRUTH'? Have you? I havn't!
All I've read is someone's best case scenario. As accurate as that may have been or is. Do we really know of any or all agenda's? Favre's or TT's? Do you Bossman641? I don't? I may one day when the book arrives on the bookshelves.
Favre always said in the years leading up to the 2007 season that he wanted to feel wanted by the Packer Organization. Wanted ' as our starting QB '.
Let's go back to the real beginning of the move to Aaron Rodgers as our starting QB Bossman641.
In 2005 TT chose Aaron Rodgers in round one of that draft as the heir apparant to Brett Favre. The writing was on the wall and Aaron Rodgers began his tutilage to be our QB. In the 2006 and 2007 ' off seasons ' Aaron showed us some promise, but he also offered us a question concerning his ability not to have freak accidents (he fell off a bench one time and hurt himself), and otherwise, to remain healthy. I mean this fella looked like an accident looking for a time and a place to happen. Do you re-call that Bossman641?
Favre was running out of time no less, and in the 2007 off season we became well aware of Favre's desires for another star quality WR. To make the march to a Super Bowl, a more realistic proposition. So ... we re-call the whole Randy Moss out of Oakland and to whomever saga that landed Moss in New Englan where he had a monster season (what...23 TD's) with Tom Brady as his QB. Please no comparisons between Brady and Favre in terms of how well or not Moss would have done in Green Bay.
I'm trying to make a specific point here.
As I saw it back in 2007; and debate me as you may desire that. Favre with Moss and all other present company at that time = Super Bowl, too much negative adversity aside.
Some of us here at Packerrats, came to a conclusion that TT fell asleep on failing to bring in Randy Moss. TT's a strange animal to many and fully supported by alot of Packer fans. TT often acted like he was asleep on the job. Personally, I've never been too excited over TT's performance. I'm even on record as claiming that under his tenure as our GM. We won't enjoy a Super Bowl win.
Why do I feel that way? :
TT's not ' balls to the walls ' enough
Well New England and Moss got to the show in 2007 and lost to the team we should have beaten. The NY Giants.
Wasn't it obvious to you Bossman641 that Favre was on his last legs in the Green and Gold. Personally I prayed that the BS he was given would end. I wanted to see Aaron Rodgers in as our starter and Favre retired or elsewhere. I wanted him free of all that is TT. Yes! I supported an awesome HOF QB or Brett Favre over a GM that didn't appear to have blood in his veins as long as Favre was wearing our colors.
I was 'in fact' very pleased for Favre when he was traded to the Jets. I was sick of all the damn agony I saw as TT stalled and poked around. I always believed that one of his main tasks ( assigned bt the real boss's ). Was to as delicately as possible remove Brett Favre.
I'm trying to make a specific point here.
We heard that TT 'thought' he had Randy Moss locked up and so as it was late in his day he went to went to bed thinking Randy Moss was a Packer. Thinking doesn't make it or anything happen ... ever! Do you re-call that Bossman641 as I do?
The bottom line was that in Favre's view TT certainly screwed up again. As Randy Moss's season in New England went down the error TT made had to become more and more obvious to Favre and cause more and more animosity 'only if' he got really weak. I believe that Brett Favre had to come to terms with the rteality of TT as a slow,plodding,bungling type of GM and their personal relationship had to suffer for that. Favre had only so much more time to get to the show. TT had as much time as his superiors desired for him to have after getting Favre out of Green Bay.
Now go back to the playoff game in what Jan. 2005 or our last match-up in the playoffs of the 2004-05 season after we defeated Minnesota 2X in the regular season and they got out of the gate way too fast. That same game where we almost came back but .... re-call that Favre's ... sloppy underhanded pass to the endzone. When he could have easily ran the ball into the endzone between the right uprights and RH sideline marker. That NO PLAY was ' just sick ' on behalf of Brett Favre. It reallyb shocked me and pissed me off. The silly smirk on his face got to me as well. That whole thing really harmed Brett Favre and I'm sure he lost many Packer fans as a result of that silly play.
After that. He had to go 'in the eyes of many'. Yes I believe that play was the catalyst to usher in our current GM. I believe he had to re-build the team and get Favre as best. RETIRED.
Favre always has and stil, does want one thing. To win another Super Bowl. TT did little in terms of making the big move to better ensure that result while Favre was our QB. That is as I see it and agree with me or not. That's what I observed; and it doesn't take ' a Rocket Scientist ' to come to the same conclusion as I have since playoff's 2004.
** Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner-Up and 3 X 3rd place.
** To download Jesus Loves Me ring tones, you'll need a cell phone mame
** If God doesn't fish, play poker or pull for " the Packers ", exactly what does HE do with his buds?
** Rather than love, money or fame - give me TRUTH: Henry D. Thoreau
Woodbuck,
The first part of your post I can understand that we all don't know. I actually can get behind that. As much as I think the evidence is slanted mainly in one direction only TT, MM and BF really know what happened. Of those 3 only 1 went on national television to plead his case. I leave that at that.
As per the whole Randy Moss thing. The Packers went 13-3 in 2007 the year we would have had Moss. We made it to the NFC Championship game that year. I am sorry but I don't care how good Randy Moss is he wouldn't have caught any more of the balls thrown by BF in the Giants game. BF was off by 4-10 feet all game. Horrible throws in cold weather.
Now let's look at the long-term Randy Moss impact. Gregg Jennings doesn't get to play and doesn't develop like he does. What happens to Jones? Our WR core has been excellent for a number of years and this teams ability to throw the ball has been its strength because of the skill position players. Instead of having one of the best WR cores in the league we would have one of the top WR cores in the league that is a year or two from being out of the league. It is kind of like our CB position right now. Yes Woodson and Harris are great but they are old and need to be replaced. When DD retires we have Jones and Nelson to step-up into the 2nd and 3rd WR roles.
In 2008 BF had an arm issue at the end of the year. Did you watch how he folded at the end of the year for the Jets. Being in GB with Randy Moss in 2008 wouldn't have changed that. It really wasn't the offense in 2008 that caused our 6-10 record. ARod got the lead over and over again in the 4th Q and the D couldn't hold the other team from scoring.
But Rodgers leads the league in frumpy expressions and negative body language on the sideline, which makes him, like Josh Allen, a unique double threat.
-Tim Harmston
Hi Scott. I had my 63rd Bday last Dec. 29th and I'll be 64 years 'young'43 years old?
That's only 20 years younger than I am mraynrand. So in 20 years I'll only be 83 years of age and v. alive !
Just how many 63rd birthdays have you had Woody?
So one day I do expect we'll see and celebrate a Green Bay Packer Super Bowl win together ( given you have good fortune and live a long life also Scott
Why !? TT is just a step out of order Scott. Just ' my gut feeling' about TT Scott based on my experience of what makes a winner.
I hope on this one I'm mistaken Scott. I fully realize that many Packer supporters here are very hopeful that this team can get it done. I just cannot see it inspite of some accolades TT's received he's IMO, not a closer.
Chalk it up to a personality difference between TT's way and personality and what I'd desire our GM to be based on what I know. We have an awesome QB now but it has to get done really soon. Our team is getting older at other key positions. In the short term or this season, I see issues at RB and in our secondary, but we have a decent shot at making the playoffs and again this season with our biggest obstacle being the Vikings, we have a great shot at winning the NFCN.
Brett Favre will be giving all he has Scott no matter what else transpires that's either positive or negative from this point with his team. That man is a fierce competitor. One of the best in the entire historey of all Pro sports, over the course of my history as an athlete and sports fan. We'll see if the Vikings management is on the same page as he is.
TT wasn't there Scott.
The Vikings need help at WR and at RB. The loss of Chester Taylor and of Sydney Rice early in the season and his questionable impact in the second half; as this injury and recovery period isn't at all good news and that possible negative impact cannot be underestimated. They need a solid performance on their 'D' and should get that as it looks now; and a healthy and productive offense to support and justify Brett Favre's new contract.
I look forward to a very exciting NFCN race this season between two teams. Our team and the Vikings. Those experts that poo poo the Vikings are wrong. That's just my analysis to date Scott.
a) Assuming that they fully realize that they do have more work to do at WR to just win the NFCN; moreso to make the Big Show.
b) I'm also aware that Adrian Peterson has to share his ego with Brett Favre and stop fumbling the ball. His ego needs to be adressed by their HC (Childress) and their RB's coach.
c)That their Head Coach has to stay cool on the sidelines and manage the ego's of Favre and Peterson, and not 'hit the panic button', as we've seen in the past fr. Childress.
All of that ... or the Vikings will implode and we'll win the NFCN. The Vikings are still the team to beat Scott. Hating that team and Favre won't make the biscuits Scott.
Behaving in a manner that promotes good karma is a lot more positive for our side. Maybe you might consider TRUSTING that Scott.
GO PACKERS!
** Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner-Up and 3 X 3rd place.
** To download Jesus Loves Me ring tones, you'll need a cell phone mame
** If God doesn't fish, play poker or pull for " the Packers ", exactly what does HE do with his buds?
** Rather than love, money or fame - give me TRUTH: Henry D. Thoreau
woodbuck, you are like the Lou Holtz of this forum.
"Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck
How can you write stuff like this? It's demonstrably and obviously untrue. A team one play away from the Superbowl cannot possibly be equated in any way with a win later attitude. This is so bizarre. (Cue the four page response....)
"Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck
WB
Just a few quick points.
You are right that we don't know the whole story, but I feel when you look at what we do know it is heavily weighted towards TT.
Favre is the one who went on TV to plead his case. What horrible facts did we learn as to how he had been so wronged? None. The Packers sent out a very thorough, very detailed timeline regarding what happened in regards to contact with Favre, scheduling a plane to announce his retirement, Favre calling back and saying forget it. Guess what? Favre couldn't deny or refute any of it. That right there tells me that there was a lot more truth in the organization's story then Favre's. Why would Favre have held anything back? He was already burning bridges as it was.
If Favre's main complaint was that TT wouldn't let him play GM, then then boo fuckin boo. That wasn't his job and he had no right to play GM.
Moreover, look at how Favre has acted since then. Retired from the Jets and then asked for his retirement "just because." Booked hotel rooms the weekend of Packers-Vikings game while still a member of the Jets.
When it comes down to a truth-telling contest between the Packers and Favre there is no question in my mind who I should believe. Favre hasn't given me reason to believe a single word that comes out of his mouth.
Go PACK
He was text messaging the reporters this season. And he did the interview with Al Jones. He emailed photos of his injuries to his agent, who sent them to the press. He gave an interview to Men's Health after talking to Werder about the surgery.
At this point Brett is like a late night talk show host, who with one arm is trying to hush the standing ovation before the monologue, and with the other arm is encouraging them.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
I am sorry but I don't care how good Randy Moss is he wouldn't have caught any more of the balls thrown by BF in the Giants game. BF was off by 4-10 feet all game. Horrible throws in cold weather. ThunderDan
The point I tried to make wasn't in regard to the impact that Moss would have or not have made to our team had TT acquired him; but that TT fell asleep in the process of trying to acquire Moss and that had to really piss Brett Favre off. Favre was on record as trying to recruit Randy Moss and it's not a large leap to Favre asking TT to do all he could to make that happpoen. Thatb willbring out the railbirds that will claim that Favre had no business meddling in TT's solemn business. This is Pro Sports and there are no set rules. The bottom line is described in winning not just doing pretty good for the season. Yes there can be only one winner. WEll I always thought this way. I can compete and come in near the top or I can really give err and be a winner. Winning trumps even the Old precept of... 'it's really how you play the game'. That's for the losers to use as a feel good motto. Again yes! There can only be one winner. What does it really take to be us.
TT?
On top of that fact that TT admitted he screwed up on the posible acquisition of Randy Moss thatb fact was handled pretty well by the way by Brett Favre in the aftermath of TT's lapse of concentration.
Now is the time or place to raise this question. Is TT ' a dote ' or did he allow Moss to slip away 'on purpose'? Ohhhh my how could I make such a suggestion?If I'm Favre I want to get an answer to that question ASAP after TT blow sit. Can't you sede Favre now..tearing into TT's office and losing his cool. I can see TT's chair baxcking up to the back wall now in reaction to the tirade Favre should have exhibited. Favre wanted Randy Moss in Green Bay. That plan made just too much sense. Add Moss to DD not any Rookie WR at that point not even drafted ThunderDan. Yes ! Favre can make almost any WR better and especially one such as the Rookie Greg Jennings. With Randy Moss it was auto-ma-tic and Greg Jennings was taken after Randy Moss went to the New England Patriots.
13-3 has nothing to do with TT dropping the ball in the Randy Moss acqisition failure ThunderDan.
Moss was outstanding in NE and the best WR in the NFL after leaving the doldrums in Oakland. Yup 23 TD's works as the best for this NFL fan. I watched him play many games that season and Moss was as good as I've ever seen. How many WER's in Green Bay ever played better than Moss did in the 2008 season ThunderDan?
I am sorry but I don't care how good Randy Moss is he wouldn't have caught any more of the balls thrown by BF in the Giants game. BF was off by 4-10 feet all game. Horrible throws in cold weather ThunderDan
The main screw up there was that our HC decided to pussy whip our side with indoor practices, instead of braving the current elements. Favre was actually appearing frozen on the sidelines. MM screwed up their in a major way by electing to practise indoors.That makes zero sense.
Our team practiced indoors and was in a state of shock, due to more than harsh weather and low temperature conditions. The weather conditions were brutal and MM may as well have set practise in Barbados.
Yes Favre was way off his game. He was like a popsicle thast had to generate arms and hands to toss a football, ThunderDan. That wasn't all his fault. That man is the toughest in the NFL and proven that he is over and over again. He's not just an 'Iron Man' in his sport. His achievement in terms of the longest start streak is just wildly incredible. Favre is inhumanly tough ThunderDan. He's hard to believe man and I mean in the highest ordert of extreme accomplishment.
Randy Moss in Green Bay is better than Randy Moss in New England ThunderDan. Hello TT ! Taking your wake up pills TT?
Now let's look at the long-term Randy Moss impact. Gregg Jennings doesn't get to play and doesn't develop like he does. What happens to Jones? Our WR core has been excellent for a number of years and this teams ability to throw the ball has been its strength because of the skill position players. Instead of having one of the best WR cores in the league we would have one of the top WR cores in the league that is a year or two from being out of the league. It is kind of like our CB position right now. Yes Woodson and Harris are great but they are old and need to be replaced. When DD retires we have Jones and Nelson to step-up into the 2nd and 3rd WR roles. ThunderDan
Again ThunderDan it turns out just fine for TT in terms of our future. 2008 and counting forward. Farve was thinking Randy Moss and Super Bowl win in 2008.
but ......... we're talking about the 2008 season exclusively and ' the fact ' that Favre needs ' to win now '.
Not in terms of ....is Favre and TT on the same page, as the team shaped up during the 2008 off season and prior to the 2008 NFL Draft? If TT gets Randy Moss then he has other options available to him in rounds one and two of that draft. [/b]
Not getting Moss force him to WR early. Ohh I know he always picks BPA early but to debate this issue we have to be precise RE: the specific issue...not go to rationalizations ThunderDan.
I do appreciate your thoughts and posy man. if IMO humble opinion it's not out of context I do agree with your views Re: the teams direction as TT tried to get it done ' his way ' after missing out on Moss and pissing favre off.
GO PACK GO!
** Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner-Up and 3 X 3rd place.
** To download Jesus Loves Me ring tones, you'll need a cell phone mame
** If God doesn't fish, play poker or pull for " the Packers ", exactly what does HE do with his buds?
** Rather than love, money or fame - give me TRUTH: Henry D. Thoreau
Geee !!
** Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner-Up and 3 X 3rd place.
** To download Jesus Loves Me ring tones, you'll need a cell phone mame
** If God doesn't fish, play poker or pull for " the Packers ", exactly what does HE do with his buds?
** Rather than love, money or fame - give me TRUTH: Henry D. Thoreau
"The point I tried to make wasn't in regard to the impact that Moss would have or not have made to our team had TT acquired him; but that TT fell asleep in the process of trying to acquire Moss and that had to really piss Brett Favre off."
Woody, we've been over this. You are assuming it was a slam dunk that everyone wanted this guy and that he would have improved the team. Can't you recognize that it's entirely possible that TT though not adding Moss was better than adding him? Or at the very least that TT thought Moss was worth so much and no more? And so what if it pissed Favre off. The Packers did just fine without Moss. Maybe TT if better at evaluating talent and putting a squad together with chemistry and so forth than Favre or anyone else would or will give him credit for - Try looking at it from a non-Favre perspective and see what you see.
"Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck
A Favre perspective?
I thought he was just being Canadian.
[QUOTE=George Cumby] ...every draft (Ted) would pick a solid, dependable, smart, athletically limited linebacker...the guy who isn't doing drugs, going to strip bars, knocking around his girlfriend or making any plays of game changing significance.
We are still hashing about MOSS?I suspect TT thought he had Moss until NE got involved and offered Al Davis something that TT wasn't willing to pay for Moss' services so NE got him instead. In the end we did fine without him. The last I heard Moss didn't help bring NE a ring either. If Favre was pissed about it, TS.
To address your points then:I am sorry but I don't care how good Randy Moss is he wouldn't have caught any more of the balls thrown by BF in the Giants game. BF was off by 4-10 feet all game. Horrible throws in cold weather. ThunderDan
The point I tried to make wasn't in regard to the impact that Moss would have or not have made to our team had TT acquired him; but that TT fell asleep in the process of trying to acquire Moss and that had to really piss Brett Favre off. Favre was on record as trying to recruit Randy Moss and it's not a large leap to Favre asking TT to do all he could to make that happpoen. Thatb willbring out the railbirds that will claim that Favre had no business meddling in TT's solemn business. This is Pro Sports and there are no set rules. The bottom line is described in winning not just doing pretty good for the season. Yes there can be only one winner. WEll I always thought this way. I can compete and come in near the top or I can really give err and be a winner. Winning trumps even the Old precept of... 'it's really how you play the game'. That's for the losers to use as a feel good motto. Again yes! There can only be one winner. What does it really take to be us.
TT?
On top of that fact that TT admitted he screwed up on the posible acquisition of Randy Moss thatb fact was handled pretty well by the way by Brett Favre in the aftermath of TT's lapse of concentration.
Now is the time or place to raise this question. Is TT ' a dote ' or did he allow Moss to slip away 'on purpose'? Ohhhh my how could I make such a suggestion?If I'm Favre I want to get an answer to that question ASAP after TT blow sit. Can't you sede Favre now..tearing into TT's office and losing his cool. I can see TT's chair baxcking up to the back wall now in reaction to the tirade Favre should have exhibited. Favre wanted Randy Moss in Green Bay. That plan made just too much sense. Add Moss to DD not any Rookie WR at that point not even drafted ThunderDan. Yes ! Favre can make almost any WR better and especially one such as the Rookie Greg Jennings. With Randy Moss it was auto-ma-tic and Greg Jennings was taken after Randy Moss went to the New England Patriots.
13-3 has nothing to do with TT dropping the ball in the Randy Moss acqisition failure ThunderDan.
Moss was outstanding in NE and the best WR in the NFL after leaving the doldrums in Oakland. Yup 23 TD's works as the best for this NFL fan. I watched him play many games that season and Moss was as good as I've ever seen. How many WER's in Green Bay ever played better than Moss did in the 2008 season ThunderDan?
I am sorry but I don't care how good Randy Moss is he wouldn't have caught any more of the balls thrown by BF in the Giants game. BF was off by 4-10 feet all game. Horrible throws in cold weather ThunderDan
The main screw up there was that our HC decided to pussy whip our side with indoor practices, instead of braving the current elements. Favre was actually appearing frozen on the sidelines. MM screwed up their in a major way by electing to practise indoors.That makes zero sense.
Our team practiced indoors and was in a state of shock, due to more than harsh weather and low temperature conditions. The weather conditions were brutal and MM may as well have set practise in Barbados.
Yes Favre was way off his game. He was like a popsicle thast had to generate arms and hands to toss a football, ThunderDan. That wasn't all his fault. That man is the toughest in the NFL and proven that he is over and over again. He's not just an 'Iron Man' in his sport. His achievement in terms of the longest start streak is just wildly incredible. Favre is inhumanly tough ThunderDan. He's hard to believe man and I mean in the highest ordert of extreme accomplishment.
Randy Moss in Green Bay is better than Randy Moss in New England ThunderDan. Hello TT ! Taking your wake up pills TT?
Now let's look at the long-term Randy Moss impact. Gregg Jennings doesn't get to play and doesn't develop like he does. What happens to Jones? Our WR core has been excellent for a number of years and this teams ability to throw the ball has been its strength because of the skill position players. Instead of having one of the best WR cores in the league we would have one of the top WR cores in the league that is a year or two from being out of the league. It is kind of like our CB position right now. Yes Woodson and Harris are great but they are old and need to be replaced. When DD retires we have Jones and Nelson to step-up into the 2nd and 3rd WR roles. ThunderDan
Again ThunderDan it turns out just fine for TT in terms of our future. 2008 and counting forward. Favre was thinking Randy Moss and Super Bowl win in 2008.
but ......... we're talking about the 2008 season exclusively and ' the fact ' that Favre needs ' to win now '.
Not in terms of ....is Favre and TT on the same page, as the team shaped up during the 2008 off season and prior to the 2008 NFL Draft? If TT gets Randy Moss then he has other options available to him in rounds one and two of that draft. [/b]
Not getting Moss force him to WR early. Ohh I know he always picks BPA early but to debate this issue we have to be precise RE: the specific issue...not go to rationalizations ThunderDan.
I do appreciate your thoughts and posy man. if IMO humble opinion it's not out of context I do agree with your views Re: the teams direction as TT tried to get it done ' his way ' after missing out on Moss and pissing favre off.
GO PACK GO!
If winning the Super Bowl is the way to judge GMs and everyone else is a loser.
TT got rid of a QB who showed against CHI and NYG in the playoffs that he wanted nothing to do with playing in the bitterly cold weather. If GB is going to be an NFL powerhouse theere will be end of the season games and playoff games played in GB in December and January that the Packers have to win. BF showed in 2007 he didn't want to do that. So a good GM should fix the problem right?
In the NFC Championship BF threw the dagger that killed the Packer's season. (I personally blame J Bush for the loss but when the game was still in the balance BF choked it). A QB who can't get it done should be replaced right?
TT is the GM not BF. Plain and simple. Just because the starting QB has an idea it doesn't mean it is in the best interest of your team.
By the way Greg Jennings was drafted in 2006 and played for the Packers. GJ was on the team while Moss was being a malcontent in Oakland long before BF wanted Moss to join the team. So that whole rant about BF wanting Moss before we drafted Jennings is BS.
As per the 2008 draft. Favre retired after missing out on a Super Bowl trip. TT had only 1 health QB on the roster and he had health concerns (and I am talking about ARod). We had to use 1 of our high draft picks on a QB because BF left. We had to draft 2 QBs in that draft because BF left. So if Favre had wanted to come back and play in GB we had to use 1 of our high draft pick for QB insurance instead of getting another offensive weapon for BF to throw to. So BF would have crippled his own chances in 2008.
One other note you seem to dismiss is that BF had a shoulder injury in 2008 and his play dropped off at the end of 2008. That would have happened no matter where he was. BF couldn't get the ball out like he wanted to. It would have happened in GB. It would have happened with Moss on the team. We would have had a crippled QB limping into the playoffs at best. Once again a GM shouldn't allow that. So would you have benched an injuried BF and allowed ARod to win the Super Bowl with Moss? Anything else would have not been preparing to be the best.
But Rodgers leads the league in frumpy expressions and negative body language on the sideline, which makes him, like Josh Allen, a unique double threat.
-Tim Harmston
Horse feathers!! Just a couple of weeks before Favre's teary press conference the team that TT assembled just played in the NFC Championship game. That team was primed for the Super Bowl until #4 threw another INT in a playoff game so you can't sit there and say with a straight face that TT didn't want to win in 2007. And had #4 not "retired" I am positive that he would have been the Packers starting QB in 2008 too.No Man. Favre had to want to get far away from TT, as it was obvious to me and other's here that TT was not on the same page as Brett Favre RE: win now.Seriously Woodbuck, we have seen the timelines. We have discussed the terms of Favre's "retirement" several times. Your inability to even acknowledge the possibility that Favre retired and wanted out as opposed to being pushed out by TT is mind-boggling.Given that 'in fact' that's true. What bearing does that have in terms of today? Brett Favre was in effect put out to pature by the Pacxker organizationb and even bribed by the Packers organization to retire from the game he loves.
Favre has integrity. He turned his nose up to that bribe Patler. How many men do you know that would turn down some $20 Millions $'s to retire from whatever? Just take that money and disappar. The fact he refused that offer stands Favre up even bigger in my estimation of that man as someone very special.
I as a Canadian love the NHL and always have followed my favourite team and player (s) ' with this ' as a fact of life in terms of any players career:
When any team trades a star player to another team, or otherwise waives that player or releases him. That player tries his best to shove that decision in his former teams face. To make the former team pay for not believing in him. Often he gets his revenge as he's justly motivated to do so. That's part of being a professional,, and all that which is related to a star or very talented players ego.
It was time for TT to get Favre out of sight and move forward with Aaron Rodgers. We saw that coming the day Aaron Rodgers was drafted. I certainly saw that coming and was concerned that Brett Favre wouldn't set significant personal records in a Packer uniform. Well he did all of that but his main incentive was not records. Rather win another Super Bowl. He came so close again in a Packer uniform and failure never dulled his appetite. The man wants to win very badly.
Try ... try ... try, until you succeed.
Once that was done ( culminating in that heart wrenching loss to the NY Giants ). I wanted Favre out of Green Bay. It was obvious to me and some others that we are not seeing around here these days. That there were certain frustrations that seperated the philosophies and intents of Brett Favre and TT. They were on different pages and worlds apart in terms of winning, now and 'YES' despite that ' Brett Favre and the Packers ' came close.
That's an old argument as well, and 'the fact is', and that we enjoy today. Is we're considered contenders to go to a Super Bowl. That's moot considering ' the fact of life ', that it'll be left on the field of play. Our success Vs any teams. We have alot of teams to play and defeat besides the Vikings.
In terms of Brett Favre and his present incentives and direction.
TT's personality and ' the will to win ' is now moot. Favre is free of TT. He certainly wants to demonstrate again this season that he had plenty in the tank when TT went in another direction. See above and National Hockey League players.
By the way the record will clearly demonstrate that personally I've supported that move of Rodgers over Favre by TT and the Packer organization. It was time. Given that was done. What Brett Favre has ever done to support his needs is moot. He's no longer a Packer and free as a professional to make his best deal and with a team he considers a serious contender.
He's not a traitor. Favre is a man on a mission as a Pro atlhlete, and 'of course' that's possibly counter productive to our hopes, and only as he proves himself worthy of playing at a high level and winning the big games. He's fallen down many times but despite all that many NFL fans love him in the game. He's arguably, the most exciting player to ever play the QB position in the NFL.
Aaron Rodgers is our QB now and it's too simple. Suport Aaron Rodgers and certainly use some wisdom in terms of hating Brett Favre. That's just wrong to sick IMO.
Disagreeing with me won't change my position.
GO PACKERS!
So here is that whole issue as I witnessed it as a member of Packerrats and I will deliver this to you, Bossman641 to try to give you adequate if not maximum respect.
Bossman641. Does any of us at Packerrats or elsewhere, really know exactly what transpired back in the weeks leading up to the 2009 Draft? In terms specifically or not related to Brett Favre coming back as our starting QB? Have we officially heard both sides of that issue or 'the TRUTH'? Have you? I havn't!
All I've read is someone's best case scenario. As accurate as that may have been or is. Do we really know of any or all agenda's? Favre's or TT's? Do you Bossman641? I don't? I may one day when the book arrives on the bookshelves.
Favre always said in the years leading up to the 2009 season that he wanted to feel wanted by the Packer Organization. Wanted ' as our starting QB '.
Let's go back to the real beginning of the move to Aaron Rodgers as our starting QB Bossman641.
In 2005 TT chose Aaron Rodgers in round one of that draft as the heir apparant to Brett Favre. The writing was on the wall and Aaron Rodgers began his tutilage to be our QB. In the 2008 ' off season ' Aaron showed us some promise but he also offered us a question concerning his ability not to have freak accidents (he fell off a bench one time and hurt himself), and otherwise, to remain healthy. I mean this fella looked like an accident looking for a time and a place to happen. Do you re-call that Bossman641?
Favre was running out of time no less, and in the 2008 off season we became well aware of Favre's desires for another star quality WR. To make the march to a Super Bowl, a more realistic proposition. So ... we re-call the whole Randy Moss out of Oakland and to whomever saga that landed Moss in New Englan where he had a monster season (what...23 TD's) with Tom Brady as his QB. Please no comparisons between Brady and Favre in terms of how well or not Moss would have done in Green Bay.
I'm trying to make a specific point here.
As I saw it back in 2008; and debate me as you may desire that. Favre with Moss and all other present company at that time = Super Bowl, too much negative adversity aside.
Some of us here at Packerrats, came to a conclusion that TT fell asleep on failing to bring in Randy Moss. TT's a strange animal to many and fully supported by alot of Packer fans. TT often acted like he was asleep on the job. Personally, I've never been too excited over TT's performance. I'm even on record as claiming that under his tenure as our GM. We won't enjoy a Super Bowl win.
Why do I feel that way? :
TT's not ' balls to the walls ' enough
Well New England and Moss got to the show in 2008 and lost to the team we should have beaten. The NY Giants.
Wasn';t it obvious to you Bossman641 that Favre was on his last legs in the Green and Gold. Personally I prayed that the BS he was given would end. I wanted to see Aaron Rodgers in as our starter and Favre retired or elsewhere. I wanted him free of all that is TT. Yes! I supported an awesome HOF QB or Brett Favre over a GM that didn't appear to have blood in his veins as long as Favre was wearing our colors.
I was 'in fact' very pleased for Favre when he was traded to the Jets. I was sick of all the damn agony I saw as TT stalled and poked around. I always believed that one of his main tasks ( assigned bt the real boss's ). Was to as delicately as possible remove Brett Favre.
I'm trying to make a specific point here.
We heard that TT 'thought' he had Randy Moss locked up and so as it was late in his day he went to went to bed thinking Randy Moss was a Packer. Thinking doesn't make it or anything happen ... ever! Do you re-call that Bossman641 as I do?
The bottom line was that in Favre's view TT certainly screwed up again. As Randy Moss's season in New England went down the error TT made had to become more and more obvious to Favre and cause more and more animosity 'only if' he got really weak. I believe that Brett Favre had to come to terms with the rteality of TT as a slow,plodding,bungling type of GM and their personal relationship had to suffer for that. Favre had only so much more time to get to the show. TT had as much time as his superiors desired for him to have after getting Favre out of Green Bay.
Now go back to the playoff game in what Jan. 2005 or our last match-up in the playoffs of the 2004 season after we defeated Minnesota 2X in the regular season and they got out of the gate way too fast. That same game where we almost came back but..re-call Favre's sloppy underhanded pass to the endzone when he could have easily ran the ball into the endzone between the right uprights and RH sideline marker. That NO PLAY was 'just sick' on behalf of Brett Favre.
After that. He had to go 'in the eyes of many'. Yes I believe that play was the catalyst to usher in our current GM. I believe he had to re-build the team and get Favre as best. RETIRED.
Favre always has and stil, does want one thing. To win another Super Bowl. TT did little in terms of making the big move to better ensure that result while Favre was our QB. That is as I see it and agree with me or not. That's what I observed; and it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to come to the same conclusion as I have since playoff's 2004.
I think Ted was surprised and frustrated that the Packers played so well in '07. He had a timeline for winning that was a little later than '07, so when the Packers began to win and it became clear they were close, Ted stubbornly stuck to his plan. It was too soon. Probably he thought it was a fluke, that season. So he probably thought he'd be foolish to try to win that very next year.
A second thought on this post mraynrand.
Lou Holtz is outstanding and recognized as such by his peers. The only thing I have in common with him and will lay claim to here at Packerrats is that we're both of Irish heritage.
I've never coached football but I have coached baseball and fastball (softball) and saw my teams win several championships. I do recognize what it takes to be a winner man.
I never competed without expecting to give the maximum required to win at anything and that was especially so when I competed as an individual in say tennis, track and field, Xcountry or road racing, martial arts, table tennis, golf (match play only) or shooting stick (shooting pool ... eight or nine ball) , darts etc.
Half way yields inferior results. Half way ends up down in the rankings. It's very important to inspire a spirit of good sportsmanship in the players that want to contribute the best they are capable of on any team you coach or participate with. Also, I found that I had ... 'as a coach', the necessary demands of making your team players ' believe in maximum results' or themselves through the required effort and preparation to win it all.
You don't get there though without star players supplemented with role players as well. You need stars with quiet egos that 'of course' expect a supporting cast that helps relieve the pressure or stress on them.
The formula to be a winner isn't rocket science. It's easier depended on the size of a team in terms of roster. That fact makes it so hard to win in the NFL. An NFL football team isn't a rugby team in terms of the complex player/position moves needed to excel or compete and gain a winning record. To be the winner calls for more. Good fortune and plans or stratagies to deal with adversity come to mind.
It's easier to win as an individual. You need only to be competitive and think positively and have the necessary guts to get over the top. You need a spirit of mind control and positive thinking and be extremely determined, well prepared or expect failure.
** Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner-Up and 3 X 3rd place.
** To download Jesus Loves Me ring tones, you'll need a cell phone mame
** If God doesn't fish, play poker or pull for " the Packers ", exactly what does HE do with his buds?
** Rather than love, money or fame - give me TRUTH: Henry D. Thoreau
It's like Lou has been cloned! Priceless!A second thought on this post mraynrand.
Lou Holtz is outstanding and recognized as such by his peers. The only thing I have in common with him and will lay claim to here at Packerrats is that we're both of Irish heritage.
I've never coached football but I have coached baseball and fastball (softball) and saw my teams win several championships. I do recognize what it takes to be a winner man.
I never competed without expecting to give the maximum required to win at anything and that was especially so when I competed as an individual in say tennis, track and field, Xcountry or road racing, martial arts, table tennis, golf (match play only) or shooting stick (shooting pool ... eight or nine ball) , darts etc.
Half way yields inferior results. Half way ends up down in the rankings. It's very important to inspire a spirit of good sportsmanship in the players that want to contribute the best they are capable of on any team you coach or participate with. Also, I found that I had ... 'as a coach', the necessary demands of making your team players ' believe in maximum results' or themselves through the required effort and preparation to win it all.
You don't get there though without star players supplemented with role players as well. You need stars with quiet egos that 'of course' expect a supporting cast that helps relieve the pressure or stress on them.
The formula to be a winner isn't rocket science. It's easier depended on the size of a team in terms of roster. That fact makes it so hard to win in the NFL. An NFL football team isn't a rugby team in terms of the complex player/position moves needed to excel or compete and gain a winning record. To be the winner calls for more. Good fortune and plans or stratagies to deal with adversity come to mind.
It's easier to win as an individual. You need only to be competitive and think positively and have the necessary guts to get over the top. You need a spirit of mind control and positive thinking and be extremely determined, well prepared or expect failure.
"Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck
Woody, you say that we don't know the truth for certain about what transpired, then you assert as truth that we would have won it all in '08 (you meant '07 season I assume) if we had landed moss. How can you know that for certain??
I also would like to ask, while I'm at it, how you can say TT was using a "win later" approach, but landing that ONE player would have made us superbowl champions? I would think if your team is one player away from it all it can NOT be using a win later approach.
I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.
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