Poland "cannot go unpunished"

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/wo.../16poland.html

WASHINGTON — The United States and Poland reached a long-stalled deal on Thursday to place an American missile defense base on Polish territory, in the strongest reaction so far to Russia’s military operation in Georgia.

Russia reacted angrily, saying that the move would worsen relations with the United States that have already been strained severely in the week since Russian troops entered separatist enclaves in Georgia, a close American ally. At a news conference on Friday, a senior Russian defense official, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, suggested that Poland was making itself a target by agreeing to host the anti-missile system. Such an action “cannot go unpunished,” he said.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I saw an eye-opening discussion on Russia on the news:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/europ...oal_08-14.html

This is what the pro-Russian expert said about recent Russian actions:

"Please put the actions of Russia into the context of the recent development. And when I say recent, I mean -- I go back as 1990, 1989 and 1990, when promises were made to Mr. Gorbachev, then the president of the Soviet Union, that NATO will never expand beyond Germany.

Yet what we've been seeing in the last few years, that not only Eastern Europe, Eastern European countries, former countries of the Warsaw bloc were invited into NATO, but, you know, we've been seeing recently the almost pressure or intense desire on the part of the United States to bring into the realm of NATO of Ukraine and Georgia and, in the case of Ukraine, against the will of the population -- majority of the population of Ukraine.

And what do we expect from Russia? How do we expect Russia to react? So that context is very important.

Russia is angry, irritated, and it says, by the action in Georgia, it's time to stop patronizing us and it's time to start to listen to our concerns."

[BallHawk]

I'm going to get working on my fallout shelter.....

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think we are up shits creek. The Russians apparently view the integration of the countries of the former Soviet Union sphere into Europe as illegitimate. ( Poland, Georgia, the Baltic countries, former Czech Republic, etc.) They are mad that those Eastern European countries are candidates to join the European Union. They consider NATO expansion to those countries as an act of war.

Ukraine is on track to join NATO. I heard that the Russians may invade under the pretext of restoring regions of the Ukraine (the Crimea) to Russia. They are threatening to Georgify them too.

I'm afraid the cold war is back on. Except this time, Western Europe is dependent on Russia for energy, they may just appease Russian aggression.

WE're back in US, back in the US, back in the USSR.

[hoosier]

I think we are up shits creek. The Russians apparently view the integration of the countries of the former Soviet Union sphere into Europe as illegitimate. ( Poland, Georgia, the Baltic countries, former Czech Republic, etc.) They are mad that those Eastern European countries are candidates to join the European Union. They consider NATO expansion to those countries as an act of war.

Ukraine is on track to join NATO. I heard that the Russians may invade under the pretext of restoring regions of the Ukraine (the Crimea) to Russia. They are threatening to Georgify them too.

I'm afraid the cold war is back on. Except this time, Western Europe is dependent on Russia for energy, they may just appease Russian aggression.

WE're back in US, back in the US, back in the USSR.

I don't think the Cold War "analogy" really works. There are so many differences between today and the US/USSR conflict pre-1989: ideology plays little if any role in the present context, there is no struggle to win over minds and souls in the Third World, and if the two powers could somehow agree to create a buffer zone between them (which may be logistically impossible given how communication technology works today)--effectively staking out two imperial domains that don't threaten each other's existence--then there would seem to be no reason they couldn't peacefully coexist. In other words, the US/NATO stops trying to incorporate former Soviet bloc countries, and Russia agrees to stop behaving like an enraged bear.

If you buy the argument that Russia is responding to Western incursions on what used to be its backyard, the interesting question is, Why now? NATO has been making inroads into Easter Europe since the early 1990s, so why did it take Russia almost 20 years to "react"? Is it because its economic future is rosier now than it was for most of the last two decades?

[Harlan Huckleby]

There are so many differences between today and the US/USSR conflict pre-1989: ideology plays little if any role in the present context,

But ideology was just a thin veneer back then, especially in eastern europe. It was mostly about power. Empires always seek to dominate countries on their edges under the pretext of creating a buffer. And the buffer keeps moving out.

In other words, the US/NATO stops trying to incorporate former Soviet bloc countries, and Russia agrees to stop behaving like an enraged bear.

Hell no! If Poland wants to be part of Europe, and not be bullied by Russia, that is their right. Same goes for Georgia, or any other free people. And its not just NATO, the Russians also don't want Eastern Europe to integrate economically with the EU.

Do you really think you can throw the angry bear a few scraps of meat, and then they'll play nice? What if the bear is hungry for Lithuania - you gonna sell out those people?

If you buy the argument that Russia is responding to Western incursions on what used to be its backyard, the interesting question is, Why now? NATO has been making inroads into Easter Europe since the early 1990s, so why did it take Russia almost 20 years to "react"?

The answer is obvious. Russia was in dissarray in the 1990's. Russia has refurbished their military. And most importantly, they have HUGE leverage now over Europe with the tightening market for natural gas and oil.

[BallHawk]

I fear there will be an outbreak of Neville Chamberlain Syndrome.....

[Scott Campbell]

And most importantly, they have HUGE leverage now over Europe with the tightening market for natural gas and oil.

They are also flush with money now because of oil, as opposed to the financially neutered Russia we dealt with back in the late 80's.



Time to start drilling.

[BallHawk]

I fear there will be an outbreak of Neville Chamberlain Syndrome.....

Speaking of.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK0d8...eature=related

The biggest destruction of anybody on any political talk show ever.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I'm going to get working on my fallout shelter.....

Yes we're gonna have a wingding
A summer smoker underground
It's just a dugout that my dad built
In case the reds decide to push the button down
We've got provisions and lots of beer
The key word is survival on the new frontier

[Iron Mike]

I'm going to get working on my fallout shelter.....

Yes we're gonna have a wingding
A summer smoker underground
It's just a dugout that my dad built
In case the reds decide to push the button down
We've got provisions and lots of beer
The key word is survival on the new frontier

It's OK for you to be 1 1/2 months behind me, J.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/vi...=282054#282054

[Freak Out]

And most importantly, they have HUGE leverage now over Europe with the tightening market for natural gas and oil.

They are also flush with money now because of oil, as opposed to the financially neutered Russia we dealt with back in the late 80's.



Time to start drilling.

For natural gas baby. Please start hammering your good for nothing congressional delegations to back another Alaskan pipeline for natural gas. We have enough gas to power our vehicles, power plants and homes with the north American gas reserves for many years.

[Iron Mike]

And most importantly, they have HUGE leverage now over Europe with the tightening market for natural gas and oil.

They are also flush with money now because of oil, as opposed to the financially neutered Russia we dealt with back in the late 80's.



Time to start drilling.

For natural gas baby. Please start hammering your good for nothing congressional delegations to back another Alaskan pipeline for natural gas. We have enough gas to power our vehicles, power plants and homes with the north American gas reserves for many years.

This Guy has enough gas to power all of that.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I'm going to get working on my fallout shelter.....

Yes we're gonna have a wingding
A summer smoker underground
It's just a dugout that my dad built
In case the reds decide to push the button down
We've got provisions and lots of beer
The key word is survival on the new frontier

It's OK for you to be 1 1/2 months behind me, J.

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/vi...=282054#282054

Finding lyrics applicable is much different than spamming the music thread with every artist known to man.


J?

[Scott Campbell]

And most importantly, they have HUGE leverage now over Europe with the tightening market for natural gas and oil.

They are also flush with money now because of oil, as opposed to the financially neutered Russia we dealt with back in the late 80's.



Time to start drilling.

For natural gas baby. Please start hammering your good for nothing congressional delegations to back another Alaskan pipeline for natural gas. We have enough gas to power our vehicles, power plants and homes with the north American gas reserves for many years.

Utah has the lowest natural gas prices in the nation, in part because there is no road tax on it. You can fill up a natural gas vehicle for about $7. And they burn clean too. Honda makes a factory natural gas Civic. I think everything else is a spendy retrofit.

[Freak Out]

And most importantly, they have HUGE leverage now over Europe with the tightening market for natural gas and oil.

They are also flush with money now because of oil, as opposed to the financially neutered Russia we dealt with back in the late 80's.



Time to start drilling.

For natural gas baby. Please start hammering your good for nothing congressional delegations to back another Alaskan pipeline for natural gas. We have enough gas to power our vehicles, power plants and homes with the north American gas reserves for many years.

Utah has the lowest natural gas prices in the nation, in part because there is no road tax on it. You can fill up a natural gas vehicle for about $7. And they burn clean too. Honda makes a factory natural gas Civic. I think everything else is a spendy retrofit.

Honda makes a great Nat Gas car but there is so little infrastructure nationwide it's still a little impractical for anything other than commuting. The home fill device is cool as hell but there needs to be stations. My friend has one and it's just amazing how clean the oil stays.

[Scott Campbell]

Honda makes a great Nat Gas car but there is so little infrastructure nationwide it's still a little impractical for anything other than commuting. The home fill device is cool as hell but there needs to be stations. My friend has one and it's just amazing how clean the oil stays.

There are about 25 refueling stations along the Wasatch front, making them pretty practical for anything but road trips here - as long as you know where they are.

I still don't know how much they cost. How much of a premium did your friend have to pay for the natural gas Civic?

[The Leaper]

Yeah, a natural gas hybrid vehicle seems to be the way to go. The technology is there. Stop spending money filling our strategic oil reserve and put it toward building a natural gas infrastructure.

[Freak Out]

Honda makes a great Nat Gas car but there is so little infrastructure nationwide it's still a little impractical for anything other than commuting. The home fill device is cool as hell but there needs to be stations. My friend has one and it's just amazing how clean the oil stays.

There are about 25 refueling stations along the Wasatch front, making them pretty practical for anything but road trips here - as long as you know where they are.

I still don't know how much they cost. How much of a premium did your friend have to pay for the natural gas Civic?

I think they paid 22-24 thousand for the car...but it was maxed out...but that is still pretty high for the model I think...? Very nice car though. I'll ask them.

[Freak Out]

Starts around 25 now..

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/