Stick a fork in this moron.

[mraynrand]

I didn't even post in that thread. Why don't you try one of the many I've posted to in which I state that I am no fan of abortion but think it should be absolutely outlawed after 20 weeks (which usually starts a huge discussion about 21 weeks and 19 weeks that I don't care to repeat).

The argument against 20 is in that thread. You don't want to start a discussion about 19 or 21 because you'll have to admit that 20 is completely arbitrary.

Who gives a damn if it's arbitrary. A doctor can look at a fetus and determine if it's viable or not. Make the limit 20 weeks and if the doc decides it has to wait a week, then they wait a week to be sure. She's been pregnant for 20 weeks, another won't kill her.

WTF?

[HowardRoark]

Arclite mentioned that abortion reduces crime which is a reference to a theory in a book called Freakonomics Twenty years after abortion became legal, crime across the country dramatically dropped after it was projected to become much worse not better. The authors of the book suggest that an alternate reason for the drop is that all the babies that were unwanted and would have been mistreated and grown up to be criminals were aborted rather than born.

The irony of this of course is that our own fresh faced golden boy (nothing intended by the word), Barack Obama would have perfectly fit the profile of someone who should have been aborted. The guy was a “mistake”, his father had no use for him, he had to live on food stamps for awhile, and lastly (and by far the worst of them all); he ended up being raised by his grandparents. And they were white. Not only white, but “typical white folks.” The kind of people who might actually have the gall to be a little nervous when approached by a group of young men who should have been aborted, but somehow made it through the gauntlet of “Women’s rights”….i.e. pregnancy.

I always get a chuckle out of the naïve rubes on the Right who say such things as, “but that fetus that you chose to abort could have grown up and found a cure for cancer….or maybe he would have been President!!” Silly people.

[HowardRoark]

What is it, 40 or 50 million total by now since Roe v. Wade? Enough of those would have been voting age by 2000 and 2004 to make up the difference in the election and swing it to Gore and/or Kerry--Why would people who would otherwise have been aborted fetuses vote Dem/lib? Why does anybody vote Dem/lib? The solid majority of abortions occur among the same demographic of people who tend to vote liberal--stupid immoral trash--no offense to any chronic Dem/lib voters in the forum. You're probably exceptions to the rule :P

So while I tend to oppose abortion, I also tend to look at the big picture. Flushing all of America down the toilet of liberalism would have been worse than 40 some million dead babies--mostly from ya'all's kind of families.

Wouldn’t it be much more efficient to just find the list of the people who vote for Democrats and just kill them?

[Freak Out]

I support thermonuclear warfare because it reduces crime.

Abortion will go away when all humans are dead or sterile. Criminalize it all you want but it will never stop. It's that simple.
As a nation we need to use all the knowledge and $$$ we have available to reduce unwanted pregnancies instead of turning away from something because some believe it promotes teenage sex or promiscuity.
Move out of the dark ages America.

[MJZiggy]

You've just brought up an interesting question: if abortion has been legal since the 70's, through two terms of Reagan, a term of Bush and two terms of Bush the scary, why is it even part of a discussion of Presidential politics? It's been legal for 30 years through 3 republican administrations and they haven't even been able to shoot down late term abortion (and now I'm hearing of abortion foes that don't want late term abortion legislation to pass because they wouldn't then be able to use the more graphic images to make their cases???? wtf)

Either way, Freak is right. criminalize it, Villify it, demonize it, it's still gonna happen and it wouldn't be such an issue if we prevented the pregnancies in the first place.

[SkinBasket]

why is it even part of a discussion of Presidential politics?

Typically it isn't. At least until the dem candidate claims Roe v Wade will be threatened by the election of a republican, or the appointment of a conservative justice. Just the usual demagoguery. No big deal.

[arcilite]

If you outlaw abortions, only outlaws will have abortions.

[Cheesehead Craig]

It's time for the Gallup Poll numbers:

Obama leads by 9 pts 51-42. Obama has led in the Gallup Poll for a month straight.

10 days left until the election.

[SkinBasket]

Obama leads by 9 pts 51-42. Obama has led in the Gallup Poll for a month straight.

Does he get extra points for that like in NASCAR?

[mraynrand]

I support thermonuclear warfare because it reduces crime.

Abortion will go away when all humans are dead or sterile. Criminalize it all you want but it will never stop. It's that simple.
As a nation we need to use all the knowledge and $$$ we have available to reduce unwanted pregnancies instead of turning away from something because some believe it promotes teenage sex or promiscuity.
[b]Move out of the dark ages America.[\b]

Ahh, I didn't realize I was against abortion because it promotes promiscuity. I thought I just didn't like the idea of putting babies in blenders. I'm glad that's cleared up.

Were there more abortions in the dark ages?

[Cheesehead Craig]

Obama leads by 9 pts 51-42. Obama has led in the Gallup Poll for a month straight.

Does he get extra points for that like in NASCAR?

He does get a couple cases of Budweiser.

[Joemailman]

There are a number of myths that are perpetrated when discussing the abortion issue. One is that overturning Roe v. Wade would outlaw all abortions in this country. It would not. It would be a state by state situation. Another is that if you elect Republicans to the Presidency, they will appoint justices who will overturn Roe v. Wade. Since the RVW decision was handed down, 12 new justices have been appointed to the Supreme Court. Nine of those by Republicans. Yet RVW is still the law of the land. Yet another is that McCain wants to outlaw abortions in this country. In the third debate with Obama, McCain said this on RVW: MCCAIN: I thought it was a bad decision. I think there were a lot of decisions that were bad. I think that decisions should rest in the hands of the states. Saying that the decision should rest with the states is a long way from the goal many Conservatives have of outlawing abortion completely.

The problem with the anti-abortion movement is that that they put the cart before the horse. I don't think you can outlaw abortion when half the country thinks it should be legal. What needs to be done first is to convince the vast majority of Americans (at least 75%) that legalized abortion is wrong. Only then can you hope to outlaw it. However, no President, Democratic or Republican, has tried to use the office of the President to change minds on abortion. However, once again millions of Americans will again vote for a Republican for President because of theeir misguided belief that he wants to outlaw abortion in this country. If McCain is then elected, you won't hear him discuss it, just as Bush doesn't discuss it.

[MJZiggy]

One is that overturning Roe v. Wade would outlaw all abortions in this country. It would not. It would be a state by state situation. Another is that if you elect Republicans to the Presidency, they will appoint justices who will overturn Roe v. Wade. Since the RVW decision was handed down, 12 new justices have been appointed to the Supreme Court. Nine of those by Republicans. Yet RVW is still the law of the land.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make.

[packinpatland]

IF RVW were ever overturned, and IF each state were to make it illegal, (yes, I know that's a stretch), how in the world could it be enforced and what would the penalties be?

[MJZiggy]

The other question is do you penalize the patient or the "doctor?"

Ayn, you know the best way to prevent abortion is to prevent the pregnancy in the first place, yet conservatives are typically against teaching sex ed which is how you teach kids contraception so that they don't create the baby that ends up blenderized...

[texaspackerbacker]

What is it, 40 or 50 million total by now since Roe v. Wade? Enough of those would have been voting age by 2000 and 2004 to make up the difference in the election and swing it to Gore and/or Kerry--Why would people who would otherwise have been aborted fetuses vote Dem/lib? Why does anybody vote Dem/lib? The solid majority of abortions occur among the same demographic of people who tend to vote liberal--stupid immoral trash--no offense to any chronic Dem/lib voters in the forum. You're probably exceptions to the rule :P

So while I tend to oppose abortion, I also tend to look at the big picture. Flushing all of America down the toilet of liberalism would have been worse than 40 some million dead babies--mostly from ya'all's kind of families.

Wouldn’t it be much more efficient to just find the list of the people who vote for Democrats and just kill them?

When you're right, you're right, Howard.

Remember 1964 when there was that Goldwater billboard that said "In Your Heart, You Know He's Right", and the Dems put up one right next to it that said, "Yeah, Extreme Right".

[texaspackerbacker]

If you outlaw abortions, only outlaws will have abortions.

That probably accounts for about 89.3% of the abortions now.

[mraynrand]

One is that overturning Roe v. Wade would outlaw all abortions in this country. It would not. It would be a state by state situation. Another is that if you elect Republicans to the Presidency, they will appoint justices who will overturn Roe v. Wade. Since the RVW decision was handed down, 12 new justices have been appointed to the Supreme Court. Nine of those by Republicans. Yet RVW is still the law of the land.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make.

I think you're both right about this. Most supremes honor stare decisis (stick with precedent), except notably Clarence Thomas, so RVW is unlikely to be overturned by a McCain appointee. And even if it were, most states wouldn't outlaw abortions, and even those that altered their laws would only add certain restrictions, not put through a complete ban. And as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't want that.

I think the underlying issue is so important that it is essential to convince people that human life, from conception to natural death, should be valued and protected as much as possible. I'd like to convince people not to have abortions because they see it as destructive to a human being. A good way to start is to just be honest about what an abortion is - not couch it in euphemisms and distracting language. It's ending human development. If you want a woman's right to an abortion to trump the developing life, just say so. It's almost NEVER about a woman's health, so stop calling it a health issue. And from the other side, if you want someone to have an abortion, the best way to guarantee it is to stigmatize the person so that they are more likely to end the life than keep it and put it up for adoption. Sure, an unplanned pregnancy isn't a good thing, but if you treat people like they've ruined their lives, they're going to be more likely to choose to hide it and destroy the baby. etc.

[MJZiggy]

Ayn, I know you lean conservative, but you're no sheep, so better to ask. Do you follow the party line on sex ed in schools?

[mraynrand]

Ayn, I know you lean conservative, but you're no sheep, so better to ask. Do you follow the party line on sex ed in schools?

I think they should just teach the biology and about birth control. Teaching stuff like two mommies and two daddies are the same as a mommy and daddy shouldn't be in schools. Parents should be involved in the curriculum and be able to decline.