7 years since 9-11

[mraynrand]

Ayn Rand, it is implicitly understood by all that the terrorist carry the moral resonsibility of their actions. We're discussing our preparation and response, the part within our control. Blaming people in this country for failures is not the same as excusing the terrorists, which I have to believe you get, not sure why you won't let this academic point go.

Because you started with equating them to Chernobyl for shit's sake. Then Campbell says "I don't blame the terrorists."

Long term, I think that is a loser and losing mindset - it basically is the mindset that the terrorists will always exist and we have to be prepared, rather than saying, we have to get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation so we don't have to be in a state of continual lock-down. After all, we've had the minimal amount of changes to try to protect ourselves and look at the carping and hysteria from the left over a few changes in FISA and in monitoring overseas calls. If we have a defensive posture only, that will only get worse. There is an ideology that exists that prefers using terror and if we accept that in the same way that we accept that storms will happen, we're going to lose, and keep losing.

[Harlan Huckleby]

it basically is the mindset that the terrorists will always exist and we have to be prepared, rather than saying, we have to get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation

you are making wild logical leaps. I'm not making any coment on our strategy for fighting terrorism.

[Scott Campbell]

You said: "I don't blame the terrorists." That just pisses me right the fuck off.

I don't blame them for being successful on 911. I do blame them for hating us enough to want to kill us in the first place.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And then HH goes and makes a stupid, brain dead post like the last one that makes one want to regurgitate one's lunch.

it was just a joke, not making any serious comment about mexicans or immigration.

[Scott Campbell]

.. it basically is the mindset that the terrorists will always exist and we have to be prepared, rather than saying, we have to get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation.......

My mindset is that terrorists will continue to exist until we get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation.

But until then, shame on us for forgetting to lock the door.

[Tarlam!]

it was just a joke, not making any serious comment about mexicans or immigration.

Look, I like your humor, I really do. But, that was stupid - the subject and especially, thread. Just stupid. Consider yourself chastised, young man.

[Harlan Huckleby]

actually, it was pretty damn funny! my working definition of funny is what I think is funny. I am in the business of pleasuring myself.

[Scott Campbell]

I am in the business of pleasuring myself.

........leaving us with a worldwide grand total of...........one of you.

[Tarlam!]

My mindset is that terrorists will continue to exist until we get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation.

But until then, shame on us for forgetting to lock the door.

Don't you see, though, that by taking my sperm sample at your airports the terrorists won?

I don't look forward to a repeat of 9/11, but the security at your place has had me cancel half a dozen trips, at least. I was strip search at Milwaukee on my way to Toronto because the 'puter threw out 3 X's on my boarding card!!

I am not Harlan, I hate that shit!!!

[mraynrand]

it basically is the mindset that the terrorists will always exist and we have to be prepared, rather than saying, we have to get rid of the terrorists and their support and motivation

you are making wild logical leaps. I'm not making any coment on our strategy for fighting terrorism.

Yes, to an extent. But I think it follows from the mindset of thinking about our prevention aspect first and thinking about our security failures first. Calling 9/11 a 'tragedy' and comparing it to Chernobyl is a much different stance that calling it an attack and a call to arms, for example. Those two different viewpoints are not entirely mutually exclusive, but the viewpoint you choose to focus on initially will ultimately lead to a different viewpoint in combating terrorism.

[Scott Campbell]

Sorry for your inconvenience Tarlam. But its the lesser of 2 evils. My kids don't like having to lock their bikes up either. But it beats having them stolen. It's too bad, but Mayberry doesn't exist anymore.

[Tarlam!]

Sorry for your inconvenience Tarlam.

Y'know mate, if it were only my inconvenience, I wouldn't really worry. But have you seen the lines at security since 9/11? You must have. The terrorists have changed the way we travel. They won a huge victory, becuse they forced a change in our daily lives.

I think that sucks.

[Scott Campbell]

Sorry for your inconvenience Tarlam.

Y'know mate, if it were only my inconvenience, I wouldn't really worry. But have you seen the lines at security since 9/11? You must have. The terrorists have changed the way we travel. They won a huge victory, becuse they forced a change in our daily lives.

I think that sucks.

I've flown most every week for the last 16 years. Though rarely internationally. I know airport security. It does suck, but lines seem to be getting shorter. I have the drill down.

And security is not even my biggest gripe when traveling anymore. The ineptitude of the airlines is far more inconvenient. Come to think of it, I'd like to label some of those companies and their employees as enemy combatants.

[HowardRoark]

To nobody in particular:

a) whose fault was Pearl Harbor?

b) do you think our country would have allowed the counter measures needed prior to 9/11?

There is a tremendous amount of push back to counter measures now, even after 9/11.

[bobblehead]

I learned a new word. MASTABATORY. cool. I already knew several along that line:

Ty will help you learn to spell it: masturbatory.

thank you, I should have known better than to trust HH's spelling, but mine isn't that great either so I just ran with it.

[texaspackerbacker]

The bottom line is that seven years after 9/11, we have NOT had a repeat of 9/11.

And we didn't have a terrorist attack of that magnitude before the Bush presidency. Does that mean that every preceding president defended America 100% OK? No. One could say that Clinton's lack of attention to stop the rise of terrorism was a big factor in 9/11.

You can't blame 9/11 on one administration and you can't praise one administration for there not being another 9/11.

I have always been loath to blame Clinton's people all that much for 9/11, but the fact is, THERE WAS A PATTERN--A CRESCENDO OF TERRORIST EVENTS all through the Clinton years leading up to 9/11.

More significantly, there was the closest thing we have to ONE INDIVIDUAL TO BLAME for 9/11-the JAMIE GORELICK WALL--the POLICY of the Clinton Administration, incredibly, that communications between our intelligence agencies was a BIGGER THREAT than that of our enemies--IS THAT A PROTOTYPE LEFTIST CONCEPT OR WHAT?

Somebody said INCOMPETENTS caused 9/11. An emphatic No to that! 9/11 was caused by terrorists--HIGHLY COMPETENT TERRORISTS. And it took a higher level of competence on the part of the Bush Administration to prevent it from happening again.

Security at home was a large part of that, but an interventionist foreign policy and bringing American values and dominance to the middle east--an unfinished task--were the main factors. And whether you're talking about the security aspect or the assertion of American power aspect, the same assholes of the left--Obama at the top of the list--opposed BOTH every step of the way. Call it ignorance; Call it informed America-hate; Either way, Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Murtha, Durban, and a whole host of others set themselves up as AGAINST THE SIDE OF AMERICA on the MOST IMPORTANCE ISSUE of our time.

[Kiwon]

I have always been loath to blame Clinton's people all that much for 9/11, but the fact is, THERE WAS A PATTERN--A CRESCENDO OF TERRORIST EVENTS all through the Clinton years leading up to 9/11.

More significantly, there was the closest thing we have to ONE INDIVIDUAL TO BLAME for 9/11-the JAMIE GORELICK WALL--the POLICY of the Clinton Administration, incredibly, that communications between our intelligence agencies was a BIGGER THREAT than that of our enemies--IS THAT A PROTOTYPE LEFTIST CONCEPT OR WHAT?

Somebody said INCOMPETENTS caused 9/11. An emphatic No to that! 9/11 was caused by terrorists--HIGHLY COMPETENT TERRORISTS. And it took a higher level of competence on the part of the Bush Administration to prevent it from happening again.

I'm really surprised that this debate is continuing.

Has anyone else read, The Looming Tower: Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11



While the roots of Al-Qaeda run deep, Tex is exactly right in regards to the immediate run up to 9/11.

Besides the silliness of the Russian psychology and Chernobyl comment, my problem with HH's comment is his assertion that patriotism is a bad thing.

Like press spokesmen several has been giving nuanced interpretations and defenses of HH's comments when he can simply speak for himself.

I'd like to have him answer the earlier question I posed to him. -
Why in your "world view" isn't there room for patriotism along with an "innovative, positive, engaged, optimistic" populace?

Why do the two have to be juxtaposed?

Explaining your personal definition of what patriotism is would be illuminating.

[BallHawk]

But there's patriotism and then there's chauvinism.....

[Scott Campbell]

Explaining your personal definition of what patriotism is would be illuminating.

I am in the business of pleasuring myself.

[falco]

But there's patriotism and then there's chauvinism.....

Patriotism is a good thing - I have several family members whose service to the country I am extremely proud of - and I have great pride for the troops who serve us today. Noble causes inspire patriotism. However, in the general sense of the word, I despise nationalism - I consider myself a human being before an American. All of us across the globe are human beings and are bound by this commonality. I don't put a higher value on the life of those who died on 9/11 or those innocent bystanders who died from the civil unrest in Iraq.

Now those who are responsible for those deaths? ? ? not so much...