7 years since 9-11

[Harlan Huckleby]

Kiwon,

Rather than discuss patriotism, lets talk more generically about love.

I think anybody alive eventually figures out that love can be hazhardous to your health and well being.

I'm not going to talk about the negative possibilites of love, patriotism, apple pie, or puppy dogs, because you will miss the subtlety and announce that I am opposed to them.

[falco]

I haven't read this whole thread (because it would probably make my head explode) but I personally look at 9/11 the same as I do Pearl Harbor - a wistful time to remember the lives lost - to me, anything more would be disrespectful to their memories. Other people I'm sure have their own views on this and I respect that - especially those who were closer to each situation than others may have been.

[mraynrand]

I'm not going to talk about the negative possibilites of love, patriotism, apple pie, or puppy dogs, because you will miss the subtlety and announce that I am opposed to them.

[texaspackerbacker]

Harlan, could you possibly be trying to divert the discussion away from serious talk about blame for 9/11, credit for no repeats, and the absolutely devastating potential results of repeats of 9/11 or worse which make THAT the MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE currently on the agenda?

[Kiwon]

But there's patriotism and then there's chauvinism.....

Yes, and there is chauvinism and then there's patriotism.

What I'm gathering is that many younger Americans think they are the same.

It's somehow chauvinistic to put your hand over your heart and sing the national anthem, to say the "Pledge of Allegiance," to root for the USA during the Olympics, etc.

To some their identity as an American citizen is something that needs to be hidden or conflated with all the other nationalities on earth.

Days like 9/11 present a problem for them because it highlights their distinctiveness.

Radical groups targeted us (the USA and its citizens) for attack because they hate the values we represent to them. The "anti-chauvinistic" citizen hurries to say, "I'm not like those other guys you say you hate" and even goes on to say that America deserved to be humbled and get a black eye (Ward Churchill, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, for example).

Most others, however, aren't ashamed of their heritage or citizenship. They recognize that there are no perfect societies on earth, but there sure are some better than others. Only the most naive among us would argue otherwise.

The patriotic reaction to 9/11 is to remember those innocents who lost their lives, to honor individual acts of bravery, and to take offense that our country and its citizens were targeted. None of that begins to equal chauvinism.

This cynicism that being proud of your heritage and waving a flag is equal to masturbation (HH's analogy) is so inanely stupid. It's the sentiment of a confused person possessing very few core values.

[Scott Campbell]

Excellent post Kiwon.

[BallHawk]

Yup, the terrorist hate us because we love apple pie and baseball.

[texaspackerbacker]

A definition is in order here. In recent decades, chauvinism has mostly been equated to sexism--"male chauvinist pig", etc.

The REAL meaning of the word is more like ethnocentricty--in the case of Americans, AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

Is there a difference between chauvinism and patriotism? Not a substantial one--only in the minds of leftists who PRETEND to be patriotic, while they CAN'T STAND the thought of chauvinism. But they're nothing but scummy haters of America anyway, so who cares what they think.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The patriotic reaction to 9/11 is to remember those innocents who lost their lives, to honor individual acts of bravery, and to take offense that our country and its citizens were targeted. None of that begins to equal chauvinism.

I'm not sure who you are delivering this speech to, but I never questioned these activities. My comment was about degrees of emphasis.
An analogy: there is nothing wrong with grieving, but to spend the rest of your life in mourning over a loss is not productive.

This cynicism that being proud of your heritage and waving a flag is equal to masturbation (HH's analogy) is so inanely stupid. It's the sentiment of a confused person possessing very few core values.

I never denigrated pride in heritatge or patriotism per se. Like AynRand, your style is to mistate the other person's position, then attack character based on the mistatement. In your case, I think you simply can't understand other viewpoints, all subtlety is lost on you; AynRand is disingenuous.

[Partial]

I was in public speaking when I heard it happened. 2nd hour. 10th grade.

[BallHawk]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

[Zool]

I was in public speaking when I heard it happened. 2nd hour. 10th grade.

I was in MKE when it happened. I was there for a Brewers/Cardinals series. I woke up in the hotel, showered and turned the TV on to watch some news just in time to see the second plane hit. It didnt even seem real.

[mraynrand]

AynRand is disingenuous.

I went after your absurd analogy, comparing 9/11 and Chernobyl. Nothing disingenuous about it.

[mraynrand]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

[BallHawk]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

Healthcare, crime prevention, standard of living, equal distribution of wealth, infrastructure, etc.

The list goes on and on.

[HowardRoark]

equal distribution of wealth

or something..........

[BallHawk]

Roark is gonna have an ice axe in his skull in the near future....

[mraynrand]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

Healthcare, crime prevention, standard of living, equal distribution of wealth, infrastructure, etc.

The list goes on and on.

I noticed that liberating countries, individual liberties, policing international trade routes, propping up the entire globe with commerce, providing defense for most of the free world, highest GDP, were strangely missing. Ballhawk, we have better healthcare and infrastructure than any country on the globe, except perhaps a few tiny countries here and there, or countries we both protect and/or have liberated.

You're right about equal distribution of wealth. There are a lot of countries out there where virtually everyone is dirt poor. Just ask George Obama.

[Partial]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

Such as?

Healthcare, crime prevention, standard of living, equal distribution of wealth, infrastructure, etc.

The list goes on and on.

Healthcare? Go to Europe and get treatment for cancer when you're 70...

Crime prevention. Perhaps. I honestly don't know.

Standard of living is good because its almost like socialism.

Equal division of wealth is BS if there is not equal division of work hours, difficulty, etc. If i'm going to school for 8 years, I don't expect a high school graduate to earn the same income.

Don't know what you mean by infrastructure.

[BallHawk]

I noticed that liberating countries, individual liberties, policing international trade routes, propping up the entire globe with commerce, providing defense for most of the free world, highest GDP, were strangely missing. Ballhawk, we have better healthcare and infrastructure than any country on the globe, except perhaps a few tiny countries here and there, or countries we both protect and/or have liberated.

Liberating countries? When did this become the measure of a successful country. A successful country provides its citizens protection and opportunity to accomplish whatever their goals may be. The US does that. The US is a great country. The US does a lot of things better than the rest of the world. However, we don't do everything 100% right all the time. You can't argue that. There are some areas where we fall short.