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Thread: Brett Favre, Not A Top Ten Comeback QB?

  1. #1

    Brett Favre, Not A Top Ten Comeback QB?

    heavily edited from the original at footballoutsiders.com

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/200...analysis/3978/

    There is commentary from the readers at the site as well.

    Quarterbacks and Fourth Quarter Comebacks
    6/26/2006

    Guest column by Jason McKinley

    Competitive balance defines the NFL. Most games are still in doubt in the fourth quarter. Since 1996, 1,474 out of 2,598 regular season and postseason games have featured a team trailing by eight points or less in possession of the ball in the fourth quarter. In 603 of those 1,474 games, the trailing team won. Therefore, nearly a quarter of all victories in the last decade have been the result of late and dramatic rallies.

    Quarterbacks are associated most strongly with comebacks. How many times was it said that John Elway “willed his team to victory” following a come-from-behind rally? Johnny Unitas is often credited with the creation of the two-minute offense. In his Hall of Fame career, Joe Montana overcame multiple fourth quarter deficits. In fact, Joe Montana overcame multiple fourth quarter deficits in the postseason alone. Hell, Joe Montana overcame multiple fourth-quarter deficits in the postseason even if you only count his two seasons with the Chiefs. Today, quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Brett Favre are discussed in heroic terms mainly because they’re able to pull out victories in situations where mere mortals would surely fail.

    Obviously, many comeback attempts prove futile. While 603 games since 1996 have featured come-from-behind wins, another 1,322 games have ended with the close trailer still behind when the final gun sounded. Any instance in which a team had possession of the ball at some point in the fourth quarter and was trailing by eight points or less was considered for the study. This naturally would include any successful comeback regardless of the largest deficit faced – one can’t complete a twenty-point comeback without getting the score under 9 points at some time. It also gives a reasonable cut-off for failed comebacks: where one drive could potentially change the lead or send the game to overtime. On occasion a team will get the ball very early in the fourth quarter, then again later, and (very rarely) a third or fourth time, and be within one score every time. In this study, that is counted as only one failed game opportunity.

    ...

    We can start to figure this out by looking at the individual performance of quarterbacks in comeback situations. Over the past decade, no quarterback has had more fourth-quarter comebacks than Drew Bledsoe. Then again, no quarterback has had more fourth-quarter comeback opportunities than Bledsoe. Are Bledsoe’s 19 wins in 61 comeback chances more impressive than Donovan McNabb’s 12 in 27? A raw total says that Bledsoe is better, and a straight winning percentage says that McNabb is better. Neither seems like an ideal ranking tool.

    A simple comparative ranking system can be formulated with the help of a statistical method known as a “t-test.” A t-test is generally used to test a statistical hypothesis against some population parameter. The result is given as a “p value,” where a lower p value indicates a more significant result. A t-test will usually reward a good average over a large number of trials more than a great average over a small number of trials, which is necessary in this study due to the wildly different and often very small sample sizes for each quarterback.
    ...

    We looked at every game from the past ten seasons to see which recent quarterbacks have been the best at rallying their teams back from a deficit. And although he was known for comebacks early in his career, the top comeback quarterback might surprise you: it’s Jake Plummer, slightly ahead of Peyton Manning and Vinny Testaverde. It’s a surprising conclusion, but that’s the kind of insight rational statistical analysis can provide.

    Table 1. Top 10 quarterbacks at comebacks since 1996
    Rank Quarterback Wins Losses
    1 Jake Plummer 19 28
    2 Peyton Manning 19 29
    2 Vinny Testaverde 19 29
    4 Tom Brady 13 8
    5 Jon Kitna 15 23
    6 Kerry Collins 17 30
    7 Donovan McNabb 12 15
    8 Marc Bulger 10 5
    9 Jake Delhomme 10 12
    9 Jay Fiedler 10 12

    ...

    Brett Favre is often cited as a master of the comeback. He has been above average over the last decade, but not by much. His 16-34 record is approximately one win better than would be expected – reasonably good, but not great.

    ....

  2. #2
    Senior Rat Veteran Dabaddestbear's Avatar
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    I think this just based on comeback. Most great QB's keep their team in the lead so there is no need to comeback. I hate Brett only cuz he plays for GB , but I still put him somewhere in the top ten. In the same Breath I hope Chicago knocks the snot shit out of him when they play!!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dabaddestbear
    I think this just based on comeback. Most great QB's keep their team in the lead so there is no need to comeback. I hate Brett only cuz he plays for GB , but I still put him somewhere in the top ten. In the same Breath I hope Chicago knocks the snot shit out of him when they play!!
    Yes Mr. Baddest Bear, this was only about comebacks from a deficit in the 4th. Favre's work while piling up a lead is not represented here.

  4. #4
    Regardless of those states I would still take Favre with 2 minutes left and we're down by 6. Favre is still the master.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wausaupackerpro42
    Regardless of those states I would still take Favre with 2 minutes left and we're down by 6. Favre is still the master.
    Favre has not succeeded in that scenario since the 2000 season.

  6. #6
    He is still a master mind and would take him over Jake Plummer any day.

  7. #7
    Eric Von Zipper Rat All-Pro CaliforniaCheez's Avatar
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    When the chips are down and your team must score isn't comforting to have

    Kitna

    Collins

    or
    Plummer

    Those names immediately pop into your head.

  8. #8
    Or Bulger or Fiedler

  9. #9
    Rat Packer HOFer Jimx29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wausaupackerpro42
    He is still a master mind and would take him over Jake Plummer any day.
    And i would still take him over anyone of those on that list
    The Bottom Line:
    Formally Numb, same person, same views of M3

  10. #10
    Fact Rat HOFer Patler's Avatar
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    I really wish I had time to look at all 34 of his "failures", because I can think of several off the top of my head that Favre brought them back in the 4th to take a lead, only to have the defense give up another score. Or a couple that Longwell missed kicks on.

    1. Philly game in 97(?) Favre drove them to a short winning FG try that Longwell missed in the rain.
    2. Bears blocked the go ahead FG at the end of the game in GB
    3. Late '90s, against SF Favre lead them to a go ahead TD with little time on the clock, only to have the defense give up a touchdown with only enough time remaining for the kickoff.
    4. Carolina, Favre drove them to a go ahead score with a couple minutes remaining, and the defense allows Carolina to drive to a winning TD on the last play of the game.
    5. Both MN games last year, the defense allowed drives for last play FGs for Viking wins after GB had come back to tie in the 4th.

    Those are just 6 that I remember off the top of my head where Favre drove the team to tieing or winning scores only to have FGs missed or the defense give up last second scores to "clutch defeat from the jaws of victory." None of those were failures on Favre's part, he did his job at the end of the game.

    I'm not saying that didn't happen to other QBs too, but I would like to look at how many times Favre did his job, only to have the defense give it right back.

  11. #11
    El Jardinero Rat HOFer MadtownPacker's Avatar
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    I was wondering about that too Rock. For the most part the Packers D in the last 5 years has been prone to give up back-breaking late game TDs. If you watch all the games then you know the feeling of them scoring only to know the D would likely give up a score.

  12. #12
    Yes, our D tossed victory straight back into the jaws of defeat a few times since 2000.

  13. #13
    Yeah so when you say that he isn't consistant in those scenarios you should figure how masny of the comebacks of his were blown because of defense.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by wausaupackerpro42
    Yeah so when you say that he isn't consistant in those scenarios you should figure how masny of the comebacks of his were blown because of defense.
    I dunno, John Madden keeps saying there's no one else he'd rather have around when you need a late score. He's been around, he must know what he's talking about...
    "Greatness is not an act... but a habit.Greatness is not an act... but a habit." -Greg Jennings

  15. #15
    Senior Rat HOFer The Leaper's Avatar
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    I don't give a crap about comebacks. Only two stats truely matter after all is said and done...titles and wins. Only one QB on that top ten list has won a title, so the rest can kiss Brett's ass. None of the QBs on that list are anywhere close to the number of career wins Brett has, so they can all kiss his ass.

    That said...Favre isn't one of the greatest comeback QBs of all-time IMO. He's certainly very good, but while very few other QBs would surpass him in most areas, I think quite a few historically rate better than Favre in terms of being able to rally a team effectively.

    That's not to say he is chopped liver in that regard. In his prime, Favre ran a 2 minute drill with incredible precision under Holmgren...and his ability to get points on the board just before halftime has been excellent.

  16. #16
    In this situation I tend to agree with that fat loser. Gosh Madden is annoying.

  17. #17
    Senior Rat HOFer The Leaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJZiggy
    I dunno, John Madden keeps saying there's no one else he'd rather have around when you need a late score. He's been around, he must know what he's talking about...
    John Madden also has 6 legged turkeys and likes circling guys butts. I'm glad he loves Favre, but his man love for Mississippi often is a little alarming...and I'm pretty sure Favre has thought of getting a restraining order on the fat man on occasion.

  18. #18
    Yeah one time I remeber him talking about how toned one guys butt was. And it wasn't just for a minute it was for a whole game.(GAY)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris
    Quote Originally Posted by wausaupackerpro42
    Regardless of those states I would still take Favre with 2 minutes left and we're down by 6. Favre is still the master.
    Favre has not succeeded in that scenario since the 2000 season.
    Rock listed some. Off the top of my head I can think of these games since 2002. The Minnesota victories in 2004, victories over Houston and Detroit (a game I was at) in 2004, at Tampa in 2003, Carolina and Atlanta (another game I was at) in 2002.

  20. #20
    double post

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