Religion retards scientific disovery?

[crosbiegrad]

Another night in film and culture class and another controversy. Someone said in the class that as a nation (maybe even world) we have allowed our religious beliefs to govern and temper our scientific fervor. My knee jerk reaction to this was no way but what say ye? Just as a point of interest, it was the Muslim armies and scholars that brought modern mathematics to the world, which I think is possible the greatest scientific achievment in our history as a world. Also, before anyone informs me that it was infact the greeks who pioneered mathematics, I know that, however, it was the Muslims who translated took it and ran with it, giving us modern mathematics

[hoosier]

Another night in film and culture class and another controversy. Someone said in the class that as a nation (maybe even world) we have allowed our religious beliefs to govern and temper our scientific fervor. My knee jerk reaction to this was no way but what say ye? Just as a point of interest, it was the Muslim armies and scholars that brought modern mathematics to the world, which I think is possible the greatest scientific achievment in our history as a world. Also, before anyone informs me that it was infact the greeks who pioneered mathematics, I know that, however, it was the Muslims who translated took it and ran with it, giving us modern mathematics

I agree with the idea that science and religion are currently part of a power struggle in this country. Not so much in the rest of the developed world. "We have allowed..." is too strong, it implies that the religion has the upper hand in this power struggle. I think the tide is starting to ebb for evangelical political power in the US.

The analogy between Islam mathematics and evangelical Christianity with science is a strange one. It's certainly true that Islam played a big role in preserving and translating Greek knowledge and though. What role do you see Christianity playing today in furthering the advance of science? All I see is certain brands of Christianity trying to impede science or compete with science.

[texaspackerbacker]

This thread is just to juicy to remain in this dull place called Romper Room.

Sooner or later, I predict, the powers that be around here will magically divert it to a brave new world where intellectual discussion is in fact, encouraged rather than stifled, a place called FYI.

[Tarlam!]

Excellent thread.

Certainly religious groups or ethic lobbyists (oftentimes rooted in a religious grouping) have an impact on certain research. Think stem cells, animal cloning, gene manipulation. I am talking Europe now.

In the USA, from what I can gather, the bible belt is a much sought after voter collective and anyone looking to achieve political office appear to go out of their way to make concessions to these voters.

I agree with Hoosier, though. Despite the strong lobby religion has formed and exercises (boycotting certain products), I don't believe they have yet tipped the balance in their favour in the 1st world countries.

In poverty stricken Muslim countries like Iran, Afghanistan et all, religion has the upper hand by law. In poverty stricken Pakistan, research is a boon. In poverty stricken India, research is a boon.


So, the degree of a country/regions wealth is not a valid parameter. Neither is the religion itself.

Depending on the level of insanity of the zealot running the religion and how powerful they are in their respective societies would seem to be the two key indicators.

[Freak Out]

Curiosity and the unending human drive for knowledge may be slowed by but will always overcome a barrier put in place by an organized religions doctrine or its disciples.

[HowardRoark]

Another night in film and culture class and another controversy. Someone said in the class that as a nation (maybe even world) we have allowed our religious beliefs to govern and temper our scientific fervor. My knee jerk reaction to this was no way but what say ye? Just as a point of interest, it was the Muslim armies and scholars that brought modern mathematics to the world, which I think is possible the greatest scientific achievment in our history as a world. Also, before anyone informs me that it was infact the greeks who pioneered mathematics, I know that, however, it was the Muslims who translated took it and ran with it, giving us modern mathematics

I agree with the idea that science and religion are currently part of a power struggle in this country. Not so much in the rest of the developed world. "We have allowed..." is too strong, it implies that the religion has the upper hand in this power struggle. I think the tide is starting to ebb for evangelical political power in the US.

The analogy between Islam mathematics and evangelical Christianity with science is a strange one. It's certainly true that Islam played a big role in preserving and translating Greek knowledge and though. What role do you see Christianity playing today in furthering the advance of science? All I see is certain brands of Christianity trying to impede science or compete with science.

How in Allah’s name do you get “The analogy between Islam mathematics and evangelical Christianity with science is a strange one” out of his original post? You are so myopic that everything looks as you want it to look.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

All I see is certain brands of Christianity trying to impede science or compete with science.

What are these specific imediments?

I suppose I do agree with you that the religion of Global Warming is impeding good science.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

ty finds most science to be heretical and wishes that we could place scientists under house arrest and their movements restricted.

[hoosier]

Another night in film and culture class and another controversy. Someone said in the class that as a nation (maybe even world) we have allowed our religious beliefs to govern and temper our scientific fervor. My knee jerk reaction to this was no way but what say ye? Just as a point of interest, it was the Muslim armies and scholars that brought modern mathematics to the world, which I think is possible the greatest scientific achievment in our history as a world. Also, before anyone informs me that it was infact the greeks who pioneered mathematics, I know that, however, it was the Muslims who translated took it and ran with it, giving us modern mathematics

I agree with the idea that science and religion are currently part of a power struggle in this country. Not so much in the rest of the developed world. "We have allowed..." is too strong, it implies that the religion has the upper hand in this power struggle. I think the tide is starting to ebb for evangelical political power in the US.

The analogy between Islam mathematics and evangelical Christianity with science is a strange one. It's certainly true that Islam played a big role in preserving and translating Greek knowledge and though. What role do you see Christianity playing today in furthering the advance of science? All I see is certain brands of Christianity trying to impede science or compete with science.

How in Allah’s name do you get “The analogy between Islam mathematics and evangelical Christianity with science is a strange one” out of his original post?

The original poster points out that it was Islamic scholars who introduced Europe to Aristotle, Ptolemy and the likes. That was a case in which a devoutly religious community helped further the cause of science. The original post suggested that, contrary to what the person in the poster's film and culture class was arguing, something analoogous might be happening today.

You are so myopic that everything looks as you want it to look.

I'm myopic. Ok. I guess that makes you just intentionally dense.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

ty needs a scientist to explain to him about when mathematics became a science.

Science: Astronomy, medicine, biology, chemistry, earth science, evolution, genetics, physics.

[HowardRoark]

I'm myopic. Ok. I guess that makes you just intentionally dense.

Eureka! Eureka! You discovered my density….excellent!! Why do you presume that Christians are the impedement to science? Maybe it’s Islam. And again, could you cite any examples of Christians impeding science? A little verantwortungsfreudig concerning your original post is in order.

Do you think that science is anything more than measuring things? What is electricity?

Have you read Limits Of A Limitless Science: And Other Essays yet? Why not?

[hoosier]

ty needs a scientist to explain to him about when mathematics became a science.

Science: Astronomy, medicine, biology, chemistry, earth science, evolution, genetics, physics.

I'm not a scientist, but...No, math isn't a science in the modern sense of physical, biological and social sciences. But it is a systematic body of knowledge, and the Greeks didn't make any meaningful distinction between math, astronomy, medicine or philosophy. But these fields and the modern idea of the sciences is relatively recent (late 18th century) compared to the long time that elapsed between Plato and then.

[hoosier]

I'm myopic. Ok. I guess that makes you just intentionally dense.

Eureka! Eureka! You discovered my density….excellent!! Why do you presume that Christians are the impedement to science? Maybe it’s Islam. And again, could you cite any examples of Christians impeding science? A little verantwortungsfreudig concerning your original post is in order.

Do you think that science is anything more than measuring things? What is electricity?

Have you read Limits Of A Limitless Science: And Other Essays yet? Why not?

So many questions. I can only focus on one at a time. You ask for examples of (evangelical) Christians impeding science. (I specifically included evangelicals to make clear that I'm not accusing all Christians of being anti-science. Surely not all evangelicals are anti-science either, but we have to draw the line somewhere.) You want examples? Here are three, a trinity so to speak: Attempts to thwart teaching of evolution or to present creation or intelligent design as competing "theories"; attempts to restrict or ban stem cell research; attempts to limit sexual education and HIV prevention in secondary schools.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

ty needs a scientist to explain to him about when mathematics became a science.

Science: Astronomy, medicine, biology, chemistry, earth science, evolution, genetics, physics.

I'm not a scientist, but...No, math isn't a science in the modern sense of physical, biological and social sciences. But it is a systematic body of knowledge, and the Greeks didn't make any meaningful distinction between math, astronomy, medicine or philosophy. But these fields and the modern idea of the sciences is relatively recent (late 18th century) compared to the long time that elapsed between Plato and then.

I know what you are saying, but his post and the people he talks about certainly weren't talking about math as a science.

Futhermore, bringing modern math to the europeans isn't a scientific achievement.

Even if it was to be considered as such...no way is it the #1 scientific achievement.

Bigger than? (off the top of my head):

1. The earth moves
2. Planets move
3. Microoranisms
4. Cell nucleus
5. Oxygen
6. Atomic theory
7. Earth cores
8. Dinosaur fossils
9. Rules of heredity (mendel)
10. Genes/chromosomes
11. Human anatomy
12. Germs
13. blood circulation
14. Falling bodies
15. Univesal Gravitation
16. laws of motion
17. Thermodynamics

[HowardRoark]

So many questions. I can only focus on one at a time.

Typical of a myopic.

Here is another question: what is an Evangelical? And how do they differ from a non-Evangelical?

Attempts to thwart teaching of evolution or to present creation or intelligent design as competing "theories"; attempts to restrict or ban stem cell research; attempts to limit sexual education and HIV prevention in secondary schools.

Let me first say that I could have posted your reply it is so predictable. I this the Daily Hoosier?

1. We already went over this one at length. Neither should be taught as the origin of the universe in government schools.

2. Should we do experiments on old people with dementia? This is where my book recommendation would be of use to you.

3. Science (the measurement of data) shows that since sex education has been introduced, problems in society with their origins in sex have multiplied. Disease, unwed parents, age of single mothers, etc. Why do you impede science?

[HowardRoark]

1. The earth moves

Johannes Kepler said, "We see how God, like a human architect, approached the founding of the world according to order and rule and measured everything in such a manner."

I bet he wasn't an Evangelical.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

So many questions. I can only focus on one at a time.

Typical of a myopic.

Here is another question: what is an Evangelical? And how do they differ from a non-Evangelical?

Attempts to thwart teaching of evolution or to present creation or intelligent design as competing "theories"; attempts to restrict or ban stem cell research; attempts to limit sexual education and HIV prevention in secondary schools.

Let me first say that I could have posted your reply it is so predictable. I this the Daily Hoosier?

1. We already went over this one at length. Neither should be taught as the origin of the universe in government schools.

2. Should we do experiments on old people with dementia? This is where my book recommendation would of use to you.

3. Science (the measurement of data) shows that since sex education has been introduced, problems in society with their origins in sex have multiplied. Disease, unwed parents, age of single mothers, etc. Why do you impede science?

1. Ridiculous. Evolution/big bang fits under science. Science should be taught. If either of those are "improved" upon..then the teaching changes.

2. He gave you an example. Now, you want to discuss ethics/morality.

3. Please provide proof. It is doubtful that any science was done on this...seeing as the "control" would be impossible.

In the end, you can not dispute the fact that religion tries to impede science. What you seem to want to argue is whether doing so is actually beneficial.

[texaspackerbacker]

The original poster here is playing kind of fast and loose with the facts. While the ARABS indeed did translate and preserve many Greek concepts of math, as well as astronomy and other science in a time period when Europe considered that sort of thing heretical, it was NOT the Muslims. Furthermore, a lot of the reason for this was that they--the Arabs--had access to the great library of Alexandria in Egypt. If I'm not mistaken, when Islam began to infest the Arabs, they sacked and destroyed that library in 642 A.D. The Muslim general who did it was reported to have said concerning the items in the library, "They will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous."

The rotten anti-Christian sentiment of the original post notwithstanding, there is a lot of merit to the idea that the Christian Church for much of the 2,000 or so years of its existence, really did--some would say still does--stifle science.

How can a true Bible believing Christian correlate the Church's attitude toward science with goodness and truth? Well, Christian churches/denominations--Catholic and Protestant are a far cry from representing true Biblical teachings--and that has been true almost since the beginning. In addition, there is a great difference between provable measurable science and theoretical science--although that differentiation may or may not be relevant to this discussion.

True believers--the Christian variety, at least, have nothing to fear from anything science can measure or prove.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

1. The earth moves

Johannes Kepler said, "We see how God, like a human architect, approached the founding of the world according to order and rule and measured everything in such a manner."

I bet he wasn't an Evangelical.

If the earth dies before accepting jesus will it's soul go to hell?

Oh, those wacky Lutherans.

[HowardRoark]

1. Ridiculous. Evolution/big bang fits under science. Science should be taught. If either of those are "improved" upon..then the teaching changes.

2. He gave you an example. Now, you want to discuss ethics/morality.

3. Please provide proof. It is doubtful that any science was done on this...seeing as the "control" would be impossible.

In the end, you can not dispute the fact that religion tries to impede science. What you seem to want to argue is whether doing so is actually beneficial.

The Big Bang? You mean the science that measured that out of nothingness, in an instant, the universe began, and it is heading toward an end time? Hmmmm…sounds familiar. I don’t dispute the Big Bang.

One of these days I will show the scientific data that proves that with Sex Education come societal problems. Too tired right now (to quote Hoosier).

His examples were elementary; therefore easy to dispute. If science is not beneficial; why pursue it? Should we allow the likes of Josef Mengele to pursue whatever science he deems appropriate?

What you and Hoosier fail to understand is that Christians have the capacity to understand that science and religion can and do coexist. We/I don’t have a childish belief in some kind of pie in the sky made up character, as much as you might think we do. If there is a God and it is truth, then it is nothing more than discovering what God has created. You can look up quotes from just about any of the scientists on your list above, and they will have said things much more articulate than I can on the subject.

When there is no limit on what science can potentially do, do we as humans have to put some limits on it?

[HowardRoark]

1. The earth moves

Johannes Kepler said, "We see how God, like a human architect, approached the founding of the world according to order and rule and measured everything in such a manner."

I bet he wasn't an Evangelical.

If the earth dies before accepting jesus will it's soul go to hell?

Oh, those wacky Lutherans.

Does the Earth have a soul?