Fair or not? Could I have fought it?

[Patler]

I was on unfamiliar streets, a little after midnight after leaving a college DII club hockey game. I was traveling a street I had never been on and come to a T-intersection of the two lane street I was on intersecting a four-lane street. My street divided into a left turn lane and a right turn lane. It was after midnight and there were no cars behind me and not a car in sight on the four-lane street in a semi-industrial, semi-commercial area. I was in the right turn lane, and came to a complete stop because my light was red. I turned to the person with me and said, "Do you suppose I can turn right on red?" the reply was "Sure." The instant I moved there was a flash behind me, and I realized I had been photographed.

Several weeks later I received a $120 citation for turning right at a "no turn on red" intersection. Neither of us saw a sign, and I even looked for it while I approached the intersection. They presented a link to an online site that gave a series of pictures of my "crime", which included me stopped at the light, going through with the turn and one after my car was out of view. Not a car in sight but mine on either street in any of the pictures.

This happened 100+ miles from home, so I wasn't about to go back to fight it. I found out that the municipality had actually "sold" intersection enforcement to a private company that installed and maintained the cameras, so my fine wasn't even directly from the city.

I paid it just to be done with it. What should I have done?

[MJZiggy]

Write to the local legislator copied to the local paper of the town where the offending intersection was. You probably could have gotten it dismissed by fighting it if it were worth $120 to go back there.

[Joemailman]

I think you should get yourself an Uzi and take out that camera.

[Patler]

Write to the local legislator copied to the local paper of the town where the offending intersection was. You probably could have gotten it dismissed by fighting it if it were worth $120 to go back there.

I was considering writing to the Mayor/Manager just to voice the absurdity of it. It's not really worth a 200 mile round trip to go back. Sure is aggravating though. Were there actually human intervention in it, a cop might have stopped me and given a warning about the intersection. The computer enters no human judgment.

[Patler]

I think you should get yourself an Uzi and take out that camera.

It does make you wonder how many of our crimes result from situations like that. It's so frustrating. I harmed no one. I put no one in danger. There is a feeling of helplessness over the process. Had there been any traffic at all, I probably would have just waited. But at midnight and without a car in sight, it didn't seem like something to be concerned about, yet it cost me $120.

[Scott Campbell]

It's a tax. Pure and simple.

[Patler]

It's a tax. Pure and simple.

More like a toll!

[Iron Mike]

I was on unfamiliar streets, a little after midnight after leaving a college DII club hockey game. I was traveling a street I had never been on and come to a T-intersection of the two lane street I was on intersecting a four-lane street. My street divided into a left turn lane and a right turn lane. It was after midnight and there were no cars behind me and not a car in sight on the four-lane street in a semi-industrial, semi-commercial area. I was in the right turn lane, and came to a complete stop because my light was red. I turned to the person with me and said, "Do you suppose I can turn right on red?" the reply was "Sure."

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

[Iron Mike]

This happened 100+ miles from home, so I wasn't about to go back to fight it. I found out that the municipality had actually "sold" intersection enforcement to a private company that installed and maintained the cameras, so my fine wasn't even directly from the city.

I will pay a total of two hundred dollars to your father's estate when I have in my hand a letter absolving me of all liability from the beginning of the world to date!

[Iron Mike]

I paid it just to be done with it. What should I have done?

You get a goddamned job before sundown, or I'm shipping you off to military school with the goddamned Finkelstein-shit kid!! Son of a bitch!!!

[Freak Out]

You remember everything but don't recall a sign stating "no turn on red"? No right hand turns on a red are pretty rare in my experience so a sign should have been prominent. I would have fought it before paying considering the situation but realize just how much work it can be. I am an advocate of photo radar because of past history and the unbelievable number of red light runners...at least in my area. But the technology is tricky and must be managed properly.

[swede]

I wonder if Google Map "street view" would help Patler find out if a "No Turn on Red" sign could be found there.

[Freak Out]

Swede is smart.

[Patler]

You remember everything but don't recall a sign stating "no turn on red"? No right hand turns on a red are pretty rare in my experience so a sign should have been prominent. I would have fought it before paying considering the situation but realize just how much work it can be. I am an advocate of photo radar because of past history and the unbelievable number of red light runners...at least in my area. But the technology is tricky and must be managed properly.

No, I remember no sign, which is why I asked my passenger who was looking for signs to help find our way out of the unfamiliar area. Neither of us saw one. This was about two months ago. Lots of big snow storms, I suppose the sign could have been down. If it was there, it wasn't very big. These were wide, relatively new streets in an area with mostly new buildings in it. An odd, odd place for "no right turn", especially outside of rush hour times, and in my case after midnight.

[Freak Out]

You got hosed. Sorry to hear it because it is valuable technology if used right.

[swede]

I heard of a tollway--perhaps Canada into New York--in which there was one entrance and one exit for a number of miles. When you arrived at the first checkpoint they could tell, time and distance being what they are, if you had traveled at the speed limit or in excess of it. If you made great time you would be directed to a nearby officer of the law with an open ticket book with whom you could argue the laws of physics or accept your ticket quietly.

Talk about taking the fun out of breaking the law.

[MJZiggy]

I heard of a tollway--perhaps Canada into New York--in which there was one entrance and one exit for a number of miles. When you arrived at the first checkpoint they could tell, time and distance being what they are, if you had traveled at the speed limit or in excess of it. If you made great time you would be directed to a nearby officer of the law with an open ticket book with whom you could argue the laws of physics or accept your ticket quietly.

Talk about taking the fun out of breaking the law.

I thought they eventually deemed that unconstitutional (was it unlawful search or some odd thing it fell under?). Or was it just the speeding ticket in the mail part?

[Patler]

I heard of a tollway--perhaps Canada into New York--in which there was one entrance and one exit for a number of miles. When you arrived at the first checkpoint they could tell, time and distance being what they are, if you had traveled at the speed limit or in excess of it. If you made great time you would be directed to a nearby officer of the law with an open ticket book with whom you could argue the laws of physics or accept your ticket quietly.

Talk about taking the fun out of breaking the law.

I had heard that they intended to do that on the toll road bypass around Toronto, which I traveled a lot 10+ years ago. I don't know if they ever went through with it or not.

[Guiness]

I had heard that they intended to do that on the toll road bypass around Toronto, which I traveled a lot 10+ years ago. I don't know if they ever went through with it or not.

That would be the 407 ETR (Electronic Toll Road).

I live about an hour from it, and it's a popular urban myth. From their FAQ

Contrary to urban myth, our tolling technology is not used to apprehend speeders. It is only used to collect tolls.

lol - they even use the term 'urban myth'

Speeding laws (at least in Canada) are based on instantaneous speed, not average speed, so showing what your average speed was over a period of time would not be sufficient.

I've never seen or heard of another toll road like this anywhere...there are no toll booths, you can travel it without a transponder, it simply takes a picture of your license plate and mails you the bill.

[red]

i think you should use google maps and then go to the street view to see if there is a no turn on red sign there

but i would also do what ziggy said and bitch at people