View Poll Results: What is a fair profit for an average NFL owner?

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  • $0 - They make their money when they sell the team.

    1 3.45%
  • $10 M max. Similar to players on their second contract

    0 0%
  • $10 - $20 M. Like a top line veteran player

    0 0%
  • $20 - 30 M. As much as the highest paid players

    2 6.90%
  • $30 - 40 M. A bit more than the top players

    2 6.90%
  • $40 M+. Its a huge investments in a wildly successful business. A solid return is deserved.

    24 82.76%
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Thread: What is a fair profit for an NFL owner?

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  1. #1
    Fact Rat HOFer Patler's Avatar
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    What is a fair profit for an NFL owner?

    The players and those who side with them have argued that owners make too much money from the players work.

    What is a fair profit for an average NFL owner?
    Keep in mind the following:

    The highest paid NFL players on a per-year-average are just under $20 M. It is expected that with the next round of QB contracts this will easily reach $20-$25 million.

    It is expected that within three years the average NFL salary will be almost $3 M/year.

    Owners building new stadiums are investing hundreds of millions on top of the hundreds of millions already invested in their teams.

  2. #2
    Obscure Rat HOFer Lurker64's Avatar
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    Discussing the "fairness" of profit is inherently misguided. Profit is never fair, or always fair. It should be the goal of every business to make as much profit as possible while staying within the boundaries of propriety, legality, and basic ethics.

    It's impossible for there to be such a thing as "too much profit."
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  3. #3
    Fact Rat HOFer Patler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker64 View Post
    Discussing the "fairness" of profit is inherently misguided. Profit is never fair, or always fair. It should be the goal of every business to make as much profit as possible while staying within the boundaries of propriety, legality, and basic ethics.

    It's impossible for there to be such a thing as "too much profit."
    Be that as it may, that's what this negotiation is founded on. What is "fair" for the owners and what is "fair" for the players. Of course every business should try to maximize profits.
    Last edited by Patler; 03-15-2011 at 02:20 PM. Reason: Can't type worth a damn.

  4. #4
    Stout Rat HOFer Guiness's Avatar
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    You really seem to struggle with this whole issue Patler, and seem a little defensive when others strongly take the side of the players?

    You have tried to draw parallels to other types of businesses/companies being in similar (strike/lockout) situations, but I think what you have to remember is that the NFL operates outside the regular rules, and even laws of corporate america. Hence the anti-trust exemption. For example, what business other than pro sports could force all of their employees to stand in a line while the only employers available to them got to pick where they went?

    I agree with Lurker's reply, that there is no 'fair' profit. It's not quantifiable, and while you are correct that all business should operate in a manner to maximize profits, that's just not necessarily how major leagues sports operate. There are no shortage of owners out there that care little or nothing of profits, as long as they get to sit in the owner's box, watch the games, and say 'mine.'

    I recently read a book about hockey, and it's owners. It talked about how normally shrewd businessmen make ridiculous decisions when it comes to running their team.
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  5. #5
    Fact Rat HOFer Patler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiness View Post
    You really seem to struggle with this whole issue Patler, and seem a little defensive when others strongly take the side of the players?
    Struggle with this? No way, not at all. I have a very clear understanding of the concepts and what I would do as an owner or as a player. How am I being defensive??? Just trying to discuss the exact issue that is the stumbling block in the negotiations, how much the owners make relative to the players.

    When did I get defensive? I have refrained from comment about the strike/lockout for several days, for the most part. Posted some links to a few articles before that, and summarized some impressions I had gotten from reading a lot about it. I do think the players have wanted to decertify from the get-go, but so what? That has nothing to do with being pro-player or pro-owner. After all, the players are pro-player and they decertified.

    I am just trying to do what one does in a negotiation like this. The players have suggested that the owners make too much. The owners have said they need more money. In the end, if the players get to see the owner's books, and I suspect they will, it will come down to discussions about how much Jerry Jones and everyone else did or didn't make from owning their teams. I'm just trying to open a discussion about what people think an owner should make relative to the players. From that, we can build a discussion. It's exactly the discussion that the players want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guiness View Post
    You have tried to draw parallels to other types of businesses/companies being in similar (strike/lockout) situations, but I think what you have to remember is that the NFL operates outside the regular rules, and even laws of corporate america. Hence the anti-trust exemption. For example, what business other than pro sports could force all of their employees to stand in a line while the only employers available to them got to pick where they went?
    I did??? When? Refresh my recollection please. I don't recall drawing any such parallels. If I did, it sure wasn't a major issue in my mind, because I don't recall doing it. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else, or I have completely forgotten comments I may have made for the purposes of promoting a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guiness View Post
    I agree with Lurker's reply, that there is no 'fair' profit. It's not quantifiable, and while you are correct that all business should operate in a manner to maximize profits, that's just not necessarily how major leagues sports operate. There are no shortage of owners out there that care little or nothing of profits, as long as they get to sit in the owner's box, watch the games, and say 'mine.'

    I recently read a book about hockey, and it's owners. It talked about how normally shrewd businessmen make ridiculous decisions when it comes to running their team.
    Listen, I wasn't the one who raised this issue. The players are the ones who did. The owners said said they need more money. The players have suggested they make too much already. I am just trying to start a discussion about the issues raised by the parties.

    If I were in the negotiating room (and I have been) I would be doing much the same thing. There is a point to all of this.

    So what if some sports owners don't care if they make a profit? That has nothing to do with these negotiations. Should the players be getting a high enough % so that all owners are in that boat? If the players see the books and determine that the average owner makes $100M/year, should they ask for more, or should they say "That's fair."? If the average owner makes $5M, should the player capitulate?

    I know very well this is not like a typical business, but so what?

  6. #6
    Stout Rat HOFer Guiness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patler View Post
    Struggle with this? No way, not at all. I have a very clear understanding of the concepts and what I would do as an owner or as a player. How am I being defensive??? Just trying to discuss the exact issue that is the stumbling block in the negotiations, how much the owners make relative to the players.

    When did I get defensive? I have refrained from comment about the strike/lockout for several days, for the most part. Posted some links to a few articles before that, and summarized some impressions I had gotten from reading a lot about it. I do think the players have wanted to decertify from the get-go, but so what? That has nothing to do with being pro-player or pro-owner. After all, the players are pro-player and they decertified.
    I think these last couple of lines are defensive sounding, but maybe that's just me. If you say you aren't, I believe you. That's what makes these types of forums so prone to flame wars. I can't see your facial expressions, if you arched your eyebrows when you said that, hear your tone of voice or see any of your other body english. So it's easy for me to read a (wrong) impression.

    I did??? When? Refresh my recollection please. I don't recall drawing any such parallels. If I did, it sure wasn't a major issue in my mind, because I don't recall doing it. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else, or I have completely forgotten comments I may have made for the purposes of promoting a discussion.
    [snip]
    If I were in the negotiating room (and I have been) I would be doing much the same thing. There is a point to all of this.
    I'm pretty sure it was you, and your second statement makes me think so even more.

    The discussion was about how players wanted full disclosure, and you said you'd been involved in negotiations, and no one would ever think of asking a private business to reveal it's books.
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  7. #7
    Indenial Rat HOFer bobblehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiness View Post
    You really seem to struggle with this whole issue Patler, and seem a little defensive when others strongly take the side of the players?

    You have tried to draw parallels to other types of businesses/companies being in similar (strike/lockout) situations, but I think what you have to remember is that the NFL operates outside the regular rules, and even laws of corporate america. Hence the anti-trust exemption. For example, what business other than pro sports could force all of their employees to stand in a line while the only employers available to them got to pick where they went?

    I agree with Lurker's reply, that there is no 'fair' profit. It's not quantifiable, and while you are correct that all business should operate in a manner to maximize profits, that's just not necessarily how major leagues sports operate. There are no shortage of owners out there that care little or nothing of profits, as long as they get to sit in the owner's box, watch the games, and say 'mine.'

    I recently read a book about hockey, and it's owners. It talked about how normally shrewd businessmen make ridiculous decisions when it comes to running their team.
    football doesn't have an anti trust exemption if I recall correctly....baseball does. Am I wrong on this. If so, how did the WFL and USFL ever form.
    I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.

  8. #8
    Uff Da Rat HOFer swede's Avatar
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    I wonder how a player such as Adrian Peterson is able to conjure up a very intense perception of being exploited by the man. I suppose it comes from the very real risk of injury, the long-term health implications, and the knowledge that a sweet-tempered mega-star such as LaDanian Tomlinson can finish his career being in about as much demand as Noah Herron.

    But if twenty million dollars won't make that go away a bazillion won't either.

    It's not profits...it's about perceptions.
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  9. #9
    Captain Rat HOFer Smidgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swede View Post
    I wonder how a player such as Adrian Peterson is able to conjure up a very intense perception of being exploited by the man. I suppose it comes from the very real risk of injury, the long-term health implications, and the knowledge that a sweet-tempered mega-star such as LaDanian Tomlinson can finish his career being in about as much demand as Noah Herron.

    But if twenty million dollars won't make that go away a bazillion won't either.

    It's not profits...it's about perceptions.
    I would love to make $10 million for just one year. I wouldn't even care if my owners were making $400 billion per month. Say 75% of that $10 million went to taxes. I could still invest the $2.5 million and live off the interest for the rest of my life with no other paychecks. <sigh> To dream...
    No longer the member of any fan clubs. I'm tired of jinxing players out of the league and into obscurity.

  10. #10
    Lunatic Rat HOFer RashanGary's Avatar
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    What's fair for the players who go out there and risk their bodies and in extreme cases, lives? It's not an easy negotiation. There are billions of dollars every year. However it gets split, everyone is rich. Just how to split it is the tough part.

  11. #11
    Fact Rat HOFer Patler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinHarrell View Post
    What's fair for the players who go out there and risk their bodies and in extreme cases, lives? It's not an easy negotiation. There are billions of dollars every year. However it gets split, everyone is rich. Just how to split it is the tough part.
    It is really no different than than thousands of other jobs with a much higher risk than an NFL player has. Miners, loggers, firemen, policemen, farmers have much greater risks of death, and many are physically as broken down in the end as are NFL players.

    Generally, a worker is paid what is necessary to find qualified people to do the job. Even though it is really no different than other jobs, major pro-sports have gotten themselves in trouble by defining a sort of "partnership" where labor (players) are treated like a co-owner. Sometimes that works in the regular world too, and sometimes it breaks down.
    Last edited by Patler; 03-15-2011 at 04:22 PM.

  12. #12
    Green & Gold Shades Rat HOFer channtheman's Avatar
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    If an NFL team is worth 600 million (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_d...NFL_teams_cost - I know this isn't research, it was the first article I could find on a 5 second google search) and they make a yearly profit of just 5% that is about 30 million. I know absolutely nothing about what should be expected to be made in regards to percentages in businesses but I would think a profit of 5-10% of what it is worth yearly sounds about right. So a team like the Vikings worth 600 million should expect a yearly profit anywhere from 30 million to 60 million.

  13. #13
    Anti Homer Rat HOFer Bretsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinHarrell View Post
    What's fair for the players who go out there and risk their bodies and in extreme cases, lives? It's not an easy negotiation. There are billions of dollars every year. However it gets split, everyone is rich. Just how to split it is the tough part.

    It's their choice; all of life is a choice for employees. If they don't want to make that risk for the absurd amount of money they get, then they can choose to get different jobs.
    LIFE IS ABOUT CHAMPIONSHIPS; I JUST REALIZED THIS. The MILWAUKEE BUCKS have won the same number of championships over the past 50 years as the Green Bay Packers. Ten years from now, who will have more championships, and who will be the fart in the wind ?

  14. #14
    Indenial Rat HOFer bobblehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smidgeon View Post
    I would love to make $10 million for just one year. I wouldn't even care if my owners were making $400 billion per month. Say 75% of that $10 million went to taxes. I could still invest the $2.5 million and live off the interest for the rest of my life with no other paychecks. <sigh> To dream...
    You say this...but how many players retire in their prime satisfied with the money they have earned. I back the players in their attempt to get every penny they can within the rules. I don't back them involving federal courts to help them. They can sit. They can form their own league. They can go sell real estate. What they can't do in my opinion is force an employer to pay more than the employer wishes to pay.
    I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.

  15. #15
    The process will determine what is "fair." The Invisible Hand will sort this thing out.
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  16. #16
    Senior Rat HOFer Bossman641's Avatar
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    I think the players trying to decide what is fair for the owners is a load of crap. What is fair for the players? Should the nfl review the personal assets and tax returns of the players and determine whether it is fair for Player X to have a 12 million dollar house and ten sports cars.
    Go PACK

  17. #17
    Anti Homer Rat HOFer Bretsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bossman641 View Post
    I think the players trying to decide what is fair for the owners is a load of crap. What is fair for the players? Should the nfl review the personal assets and tax returns of the players and determine whether it is fair for Player X to have a 12 million dollar house and ten sports cars.
    TEN CLAP POST
    LIFE IS ABOUT CHAMPIONSHIPS; I JUST REALIZED THIS. The MILWAUKEE BUCKS have won the same number of championships over the past 50 years as the Green Bay Packers. Ten years from now, who will have more championships, and who will be the fart in the wind ?

  18. #18
    Sugadaddy Rat HOFer Zool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bossman641 View Post
    I think the players trying to decide what is fair for the owners is a load of crap. What is fair for the players? Should the nfl review the personal assets and tax returns of the players and determine whether it is fair for Player X to have a 12 million dollar house and ten sports cars.
    Its not like the players have another option other than playing in the NFL at the current rate of pay, so it's also a load of crap to say they shouldn't try to get as much money as possible. Next time you're up for a raise tell your boss you're not interested. You're paid fairly enough.

    Both sides are greedy pricks, but everyone in here to the person would try to get as much as they can while they can if put in either side of this situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3irty1 View Post
    This is museum quality stupidity.

  19. #19
    Wolf Pack Rat HOFer Deputy Nutz's Avatar
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    I am going to chime in, in my opinion a fair profit for the owners is what ever they can get. This a capitalist economy the last time I checked, and if they can make a billion dollars a year so be it. Unfortunately for them they are in a way business partners with the players. If the players don't play then in theory they don't make jack shit. The owners will get paid their TV contracts regardless of a Strike or a Lock out, but that is it. Their profits won't be maximized without the players.

  20. #20
    CutlerquitRat HOFer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zool View Post
    Its not like the players have another option other than playing in the NFL at the current rate of pay, so it's also a load of crap to say they shouldn't try to get as much money as possible. Next time you're up for a raise tell your boss you're not interested. You're paid fairly enough.

    Both sides are greedy pricks, but everyone in here to the person would try to get as much as they can while they can if put in either side of this situation.

    They can get paid to play football at a lot of other places. the NFL is just the most lucrative. You can computer program at a bunch of places as well but I bet you get paid a hell of a lot more at Google than some start up.

    I dont know why they locked out the players seems dumb to me. I would have locked out the UNION players but that union is gone so no reason to lock them out.
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