A Hater's Take, Part II

[Deputy Nutz]

IF Neal gets back to 100%, he would make a big difference. Cullen Jenkins made a big dif when he returned from injury late last year.

I don't know how much of an impact Neal can make because he has been injured for 16 straight regular season games. But hopefully for Packer fan he can get after the passer.

[HarveyWallbangers]

1) We have no idea what Rodgers said to Kuhn. Maybe he was pissed at himself for not running it in.
2) Once again, this was a game we won almost solely because our QB was better than the other team's QB. He made plays and didn't make mistakes. Newton made plays but made mistakes. He was game MVP. Was he perfect? No. Hell, he's been so damn good that this might be one of the worst games he's played over the last 12 games, and he was still darn good. To me, it seems like you are going out of your way to rip Rodgers. Memories fade. Favre, just like all QBs, have shown frustration on the field. I saw Tom Brady yell at one of his teammates late last year. Manning does it all of the time. Maybe Rodgers doesn't have Joe Montana's cool demeanor, but if we went back, I bet even Joe showed frustration at times.

[Deputy Nutz]

In his last 12 healthy games, Rodgers has completed 257 of 392 passes (66%) for 3579 yards (9.1 ypa) with 30 touchdowns and just 3 interceptions. He's on a historic run right now. That kind of play will buy you a lot of credibility in the locker room. Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing. He has the same reaction after he misses a throw (his fault) as he does when somebody drops one. However, after the game he always takes blame (sometimes unnecessary) and shows undying loyalty to his guys.

Kind of like when Favre won three MVPs in a row and we all ignored his sophmoric behavior. Then when he falls out of favor with Packer fan they crucify him and burn him in effigy. I get it, it is a what have you done for me lately fan base across the NFL, it will never change and I would expect the same thing to happen to Aaron Rodgers but he is such a kiss ass to the Wisconsin sport fan, and the Wisconsin media, he has created an image of that of Bart Star.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Rodgers right now is better than Favre in his prime. I'm happy we had Favre, and I'm even happier we have Rodgers. My only worry is that Rodgers stays healthy.


Like I said, memories of the bad things fade. I didn't just make this up--like you are insinuating. I doubt I'll find video on it, but I'm not the only one apparently who has noticed it. Once again, I could care less if Favre or Rodgers has done it. Not once did a chastise Favre for doing it at the time.

http://www.packerchatters.com/4ums/i...showtopic=6504

To see Favre continually motion on the field after an incomplete pass that yet again another non-Moss receiver has ran a wrong route is not a positive sign. Add to that all of Favre’s grimacing on the sidelines when something on the field goes array. GB does not need this from Favre when he is the leader of the youngest team in the NFL.

Kind of funny to see the response from a Favre backer:

It is sort of funny that what you site above as a Brett Favre issue I am seeing as a bigger concern for AR. Brett has the tenure and respect of the players and if he is less than happy with a route he has earned the right to display if not chastise a player for it.

Both fans are hypocrits.

I don't really like to see QB's be demonstrative like that. They're on TV, and it can come off as embarrassing or belittling to teammates. I remember Dan Marino seemed to do it a lot too, especially toward the end of his career.

I think you have to factor in the fact that Favre has earned the right to do that a little bit, and that he's essentially coaching on the field at times. It may come off as pretty negative on the TV screen, but it might not be as big of a deal as you think too.

I can see where you're going with this thread, and I guess my response is that winning cures all ills. If the Packers can go out and win, then this will be no big deal. If they start losing, then this could morph into something worrisome.

I don't like the facial expressions either because of the cameras. But, I do think these are exactly the things that get WR's and QB's on the same page.

There are ways to coach up your receivers without showing them up in front of the entire world. Favre's act is getting old. Favre easily could have thrown the ball directly to Jones who had his route cut off by a defender before it started, so then he found a hole in the zone and sat there open which is not necessarily wrong, and I'm also not saying it was Favre's fault either, things happen. But there's no need to throw your receivers under the bus on national TV, which has become an all to often of an occurrence. If he's got a problem it shjould be handled on the sidelines.

[HarveyWallbangers]

This sounds exactly like my reasoning.


The difference is I'm not being a hypocrit because I never ripped Favre for doing it in the first place. Just defending Rodgers because I see QBs do it all of the time. I think it's nitpicking.

Wow, Tom Brady does this all the time and gets credited as being the team leader. Peyton Manning does this and is viewed as being the best QB in the NFL. Brett Favre does this and is viewed as being "a tired act". You guys always seem to find something. Favre was the only reason we were even in that game against JAX, and you still find fault.

Secondly, EVERY veteran QB "coaches" to some extent on the field, moreso if they are playing with younger/less experienced team mates. Manning still gets on Reggie Wayne and they've played together like 6 years now. Tom Brady's looks of disgust last year happened NUMEROUS times ( in fairness, I would too playing with Caldwell and Gaffney). Elway, Marino, Young, Aikman all did it as well... especially once they were playing with players of less skill than the Dupers, Taylors, Irvins, etc that they were used to playing with.

BTW, I'm starting to think Harlan is right about Cullen Jenkins. Our defense scares me right now. At least, they are still making big plays to win games--like last year and unlike 2008.

[Deputy Nutz]

As an offensive linemen, I hated having to listen to another skill position bitch about our blocking. I certainly wasn't going to bitch about our QB missing open receivers and to me his job was a lot softer than ours. I don't think it should happen on the field, and I really don't think it should happen in the locker room. It is the coaches responsiblity to coach up the team or dicipline the team, not the QB.

So when Favre did it, I didn't defend him, he should have a conversation with his receivers to get on the same page, but to ridicule or demean a player on the field is different story. Shit he had to put up with Bil Sheroder for how many seasons and he tried to take him deer hunting to try and bond with him. Favre should be held up as a Saint for dealing with that worthless bugger.

[Deputy Nutz]

BTW, I'm starting to think Harlan is right about Cullen Jenkins. Our defense scares me right now. At least, they are still making big plays to win games--like last year and unlike 2008.

It is not the loss of Cullen Jenkins that bothers me, it was the lack of a sure replacement that bothered me. The Packers put confidence in an injury plagued 2nd year player to hold up the end spot opposite of Clay Mathews. This goes along with the fact that the Packers have an undrafted scrap heap free agent from last year starting on the same side. Eric Walden might be a decent reserve but I haven't seen enough good plays out of him to think he isn't anything more than a scrap heap type player. The Packers need a presence on the other side whether it is a down lineman or a linebacker that can get some pressure, or at least be able to cover, which Walden can't.

[pbmax]

Its dumb and unnecessary. Doesn't matter if its Rodgers, Favre, Manning, Marino or Otto Graham, its ridiculous and counter-productive. The fact that it seems to happen most frequently when teams are struggling would seem to indicate that its not helping. Its simply letting frustration get the better of you.

My memory hasn't faded and this isn't a personal snit-fest between Harv and Nutz, or Rodgers v Favre.

In point of fact, I think Marino and Favre could be held up as examples of players getting to that level of frustration as their careers expired. A picture is worth a thousand words and Rodgers should stop volunteering that picture.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'd rather Rodgers not do it, but that's his personality. He's a perfectionist. He does the same thing when he misses a throw. The guy could go 30 of 40 for 350 and he'd talk about the couple of throws he missed. But plenty of QBs do it and have done it. Most, in fact. Including Favre. Most great QBs are perfectionists, so I'd argue that great QBs probably do it more than average ones. I don't doubt that you aren't being a hypocrit, and would in fact get on Favre about doing the same thing. I would have defended Favre at the time--just like I'm defending Rodgers.

30 TDs and 3 interceptions is insane, btw. We are 11-1 in those games. The only game we lost is when Rodgers hit Nelson with the tying TD at Atlanta in the final minute in the regular season... only to see the special teams give it away. I've always felt Joe Montana was the best QB ever. I used to argue against Tom Brady, but it's pretty friggin' hard to argue against him anymore. I know they haven't won a Super Bowl recently, but since those arguments he's put up a near perfect season with 50 TDs and 8 picks and another season of 36 TDs and 4 picks. Insane. Rodgers may never get to that level, but he's getting pretty damn close.

[pbmax]

OLB wasn't any better at the start of last year as Jones hasn't shown his previous pass rushing form since his first series of starts. It might have been a mirage of bad opponents, or something else unlikely to re-occur.

But that doesn't make Jenkins a safe bet. The Packers will need to have someone step up again, just like last year. Between Neal and So'oto, someone has to get healthy. And hopefully Wynn isn't done getting penetration. He did have a solid game against the run on the plays I saw him.

[pbmax]

He didn't become a perfectionist in the last 30 days Harv. He wasn't doing it this much last year.

[Pugger]

If Rodgers didn't care he wouldn't be frustrated. The last I heard Rodgers is human...

[pbmax]

30 TDs and 3 interceptions is insane, btw. We are 11-1 in those games...

... Rodgers may never get to that level, but he's getting pretty damn close.

But is the public demonstration actually helping him achieve these results? They played worse on offense last year and he seemed more at ease.

[Joemailman]

I'd rather Rodgers not do it, but that's his personality. He's a perfectionist. He does the same thing when he misses a throw. The guy could go 30 of 40 for 350 and he'd talk about the couple of throws he missed. But plenty of QBs do it and have done it. Most, in fact. Including Favre. Most great QBs are perfectionists, so I'd argue that great QBs probably do it more than average ones. I don't doubt that you aren't being a hypocrit, and would in fact get on Favre about doing the same thing. I would have defended Favre at the time--just like I'm defending Rodgers.

30 TDs and 3 interceptions is insane, btw. We are 11-1 in those games. The only game we lost is when Rodgers hit Nelson with the tying TD at Atlanta in the final minute in the regular season... only to see the special teams give it away. I've always felt Joe Montana was the best QB ever. I used to argue against Tom Brady, but it's pretty friggin' hard to argue against him anymore. I know they haven't won a Super Bowl recently, but since those arguments he's put up a near perfect season with 50 TDs and 8 picks and another season of 36 TDs and 4 picks. Insane. Rodgers may never get to that level, but he's getting pretty damn close.

I could see Rodgers approaching the 36 TD 4 INT season Brady had. The last 2 years, Rodgers has been the NFL's best passer in the 2nd half of the season. Last year he was 16-2 in the second half after 12-9 in the 1st half. The fact that he's 5-0 to start this year gives him a shot. At this point, I don't think Rodgers has had a season that matched what Favre did in 1995-96, but he could this year.

[pbmax]

Point of clarification. Was just watching highlights and unlike my memory, Olsen was getting single coverage early from Burnett. Not sure what the D did to slow him down after the first quarter, if anything. Shockey was getting LBs and safeties over the top.

Also, Peprah was the safety who let Smith get behind him on his long TD.

[HarveyWallbangers]

He didn't become a perfectionist in the last 30 days Harv. He wasn't doing it this much last year.

He did do it last year. He did it a lot when Jones dropped a ball. I have the last several games still DVR'd, and he did it a lot. Honestly, I don't think much has changed.

[mraynrand]

It is not the loss of Cullen Jenkins that bothers me, it was the lack of a sure replacement that bothered me. The Packers put confidence in an injury plagued 2nd year player to hold up the end spot opposite of Clay Mathews.

What does this mean? Do you really believe Neal is to blame - or the GM is to blame for not anticipating Neal getting a knee injury. Yes, he was counting on the guy to produce in his second year, just like this team has been doing for most players at most positions. Was TT wrong to count on an injury plagued Finley last year. There was a lack of a sure replacement there too. What can be done? What should have been done differently? Seems like as GM you have to roll the dice somewhat and takes your chances.

[Guiness]

I'd rather Rodgers not do it, but that's his personality. He's a perfectionist. He does the same thing when he misses a throw. The guy could go 30 of 40 for 350 and he'd talk about the couple of throws he missed. But plenty of QBs do it and have done it. Most, in fact. Including Favre. Most great QBs are perfectionists, so I'd argue that great QBs probably do it more than average ones. I don't doubt that you aren't being a hypocrit, and would in fact get on Favre about doing the same thing. I would have defended Favre at the time--just like I'm defending Rodgers.

30 TDs and 3 interceptions is insane, btw. We are 11-1 in those games. The only game we lost is when Rodgers hit Nelson with the tying TD at Atlanta in the final minute in the regular season... only to see the special teams give it away. I've always felt Joe Montana was the best QB ever. I used to argue against Tom Brady, but it's pretty friggin' hard to argue against him anymore. I know they haven't won a Super Bowl recently, but since those arguments he's put up a near perfect season with 50 TDs and 8 picks and another season of 36 TDs and 4 picks. Insane. Rodgers may never get to that level, but he's getting pretty damn close.

The run Brady is on at home right now is pretty insane. He's won his last 29 straight regular season games there, hasn't thrown an INT in his last 6!

[Deputy Nutz]

You really can't blame Neil. He is a work out machine, he tries to keep his body in tip top shape, but he has history, and for that you have to blame Thompson. Thompson took a risk in drafting him in the second round because of Neal's potential when he is not injured, but Neal is still injured and it doesn't look like he will be healthy any time soon. Neal, Wynn, Wilson are not in Jenkins class, and the Packers went into this season with those three players at RDE wilth no veteran backbone. I like Green, but the problem is this a passing league and having Green, Raji, and Pickett on the front line is useless unless you are battling the Steelers or Atlanta. The Packers needed someone else besides Wynn, Neal, and Wilson, combine that with two free agent olbs, and a 7th round draft pick competing for the lolb position and you don't have much talent or healthy talent on the left side of the line of scrimmage.

[3irty1]

You really can't blame Neil. He is a work out machine, he tries to keep his body in tip top shape, but he has history, and for that you have to blame Thompson. Thompson took a risk in drafting him in the second round because of Neal's potential when he is not injured, but Neal is still injured and it doesn't look like he will be healthy any time soon. Neal, Wynn, Wilson are not in Jenkins class, and the Packers went into this season with those three players at RDE wilth no veteran backbone. I like Green, but the problem is this a passing league and having Green, Raji, and Pickett on the front line is useless unless you are battling the Steelers or Atlanta. The Packers needed someone else besides Wynn, Neal, and Wilson, combine that with two free agent olbs, and a 7th round draft pick competing for the lolb position and you don't have much talent or healthy talent on the left side of the line of scrimmage.

The insane depth in the secondary, along the OL, WR, TE, RB, and QB have spoiled you rotten. The DL hasn't had a bad game yet this season. Mike Neal is a disappointment yes but if you want insurance I don't think the answer is adding another injury plagued guy in Jenkins. The DL has been a strength of the team so far this season. Apparently Wynn secretly planned on replacing Jenkins all along.