So if the defense is terrible again this season?

[wist43]

1. Raji and Pickett played some nickel, but only when the percentages (or clock perhaps) said the opposition was going to run.

2. One of the problems we have in this debate is that we think 2-4 and 3-3 are entirely different schemes. But they are not. They are counts of positions. If Perry was on the Saints he would be part of the front line 3-3. A pass rushing end. One of whom is almost always on the field and a second of which could be inserted when they take two DL off the field and put in a DB and a pass rusher. The fact that he has not been productive enough is why Peppers is here.

3. Which leads to the obvious question: how often was the Saints 3-3 nickel geared toward beef rather than pass rush? Ideally, you do not need to substitute. Which is one reason why Pickett is no longer on the team, they hope Raji does that again.

The Saints actually played much more 4-2, as the strength of their defense is on the DL - which is where our is as well; so it only makes sense to have those players on the field.

Perry or Neal aren't the issue here - the issue is Pickett, Raji, Hawk, and Brad Jones. 2 of those guys should not be on the field in the nickel. Pickett for sure, and one of either Hawk or Brad Jones, depending on whether the team we're playing is expected more likely to run or pass. Pass? play Jones over Hawk; Run? play Hawk over Jones.

As for Raji, at this point, I'd play him predominantly in the base 3-4, and leave the nickel interior line to Daniels, Peppers, D. Jones, Guion, Worthy, and now Thorton; with Perry used as a situational pass rusher from the DE position in a 4-2. Maybe a 4-2 of Peppers, Daniels, D. Jones, and Perry on the line. Use Boyd and Raji in the base - which we only run about 20% of the time anyway.

The goal should be to make as much use of the DL talent as possible, and minimize the use of Brad Jones and Hawk. Bradford will surely be in the mix on the outside as well.

[pbmax]

I agree Hawk and Jones present a problem, but who covers without them? You send Matthews into coverage (and I do think they should move him inside occasionally to mix things up) and you weaken your pass rush immediately. If only one LB on the field in nickel can cover the deep middle or crossing routes, you have to play 6 man pass defense unless you drop an OLB. That means you HAVE to get pressure and that has not happened enough even with a five man rush.

I still have some hope for Jones in his run defense, but they do need an upgrade. Some are banking on Lattimore or Barrington, but I don't see it yet.

Perry or Neal sized players in a 4-3 are playing end. Heck, on the Seahawks Matthews would be an elephant end with his hand in the ground sometimes.

I also agree Pickett is basically an advertisement for what you are willing to surrender, but you have to defend against the worst outcome and Capers always schemes to stop the run first. He has way too many players who have limits going both ways.

That is why I think McCarthy is demanding less scheme, one more tailored to the players. This will help out with youth and injuries. But it doesn't solve each position.

[pbmax]

This year's defense, APRH, will be a test of a couple of ways of planning your D.

Do what you do well and have everyone on the same page to limit mistakes. Helps with rookies, young-ins and injuries. Might open you up to being abused by a sophisticated offense (Saints, Patriots, Broncos) if you don't win the individual battle. While its not the Johnson/Wannestadt/Bates defense in scheme, it is the philosophy.

Scheme to stop the biggest threat to your team's success. Know where your weaknesses are and be prepared to cover them or hide them. Its complicated, better run by vets but will not give good offenses easy choices. If the other team has a weakness, scheme to attack it, you won't have to hold the backend forever if you are successful.

[3irty1]

You scheme against the biggest threats but that changes each week. I'd argue the better philosophy is to achieve balance in your own personnel. If you've got an embarrassment of riches in run defenders you can sell out against the pass, knowing you'll be able to be somewhat effective against the run if it comes. This was us in 2010 after a 2009 of dominating against the run. The problem with those teams is that while you can sell out against the run effectively, you can sell out against the pass to achieve balance, but you've run out of trade offs to make when you absolutely must stop the pass. This is the story of 2011, the offense was good enough to force other teams to pass and even when we knew it was coming we couldn't do shit to stop it.

Judging by the personnel changes this year it looks like a roster that no longer needs to sell out against anything just to achieve balance. If anything, we may end up putting strong pass rushers in a 3-4 or even 2-5 Eagle type D to keep the run at bay depending on how Raji and the new beef perform without Pickett or Jolly.

[pbmax]

Judging by the personnel changes this year it looks like a roster that no longer needs to sell out against anything just to achieve balance. If anything, we may end up putting strong pass rushers in a 3-4 or even 2-5 Eagle type D to keep the run at bay depending on how Raji and the new beef perform without Pickett or Jolly.

I think there is something to this, and might be the most telling thing about the offseason, not Peppers or less scheme/volume/whatever.

More versatile lineman on the field more. This could mean more base but no one has publicly contemplated that. But it could mean less beefy nickel except in obvious run situations.

[wist43]

I think there is something to this, and might be the most telling thing about the offseason, not Peppers or less scheme/volume/whatever.

More versatile lineman on the field more. This could mean more base but no one has publicly contemplated that. But it could mean less beefy nickel except in obvious run situations.

It's a "less beefy" nickel if all you do is substitute say Boyd and Guion for Pickett and Raji, and leave the same pedestrian ILB's on the field. What they should be doing, is shitcan the "Jumbo 2-4 nickel" and replace Pickett, Raji, and one of the ILB's with Daniels, D. Jones, and now Thorton. Your OLB's would be Matthews and Peppers, and pick your poison at ILB.

That would not be a "less beefy" nickel b/c Daniels, D. Jones, and Thorton offer size and agility in place of size (Pickett and Raji) and pedestrian (Hawk or Jones).

I'd rather have 3 DL on the field in those situaitons to deal with run/pass - and if you think it is more likely pass there is no rule against lurking your SS near the line. It would allow the defense to show more looks, instead of that mind-numbing static 2-4 down and down.

That's been my bitch about how Capers has run the 2-4 all along.

[denverYooper]

Mmmm, beefy nickel.

[Bretsky]

I have never bought into the it's all Dom's fault theory; I've felt the blame is at least 60% TT's for bringing in bad fits and outlining some positions with youth and inexperience when they need some vets back there to lead. He's also completed let down the coaches at the safety postion.

This is a year I see some talent back there.

If the D does not step up this year I will lean toward Wistology in terms of our defense

[Patler]

Yet coaches everywhere will tell you that a good player can be used in any philosophy.

In 10 years TT has drafted 7 safeties, in rounds 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4 and 6. He has essentially had 40 picks in rounds 1-4 (give or take) and used 6 of the 40 on safeties. Six for two starters, leaving 34 for the other 20 starters. That doesn't include Hyde, who could be a 5th round safety.

He went the route of the "experienced veteran" safeties in the early years, some with a lot of playing experience. They didn't work out so well either.

I think an awful lot of teams need better safeties than they have. Sometimes you get lucky and draft Nick Collins. Other times you are not so lucky, and just a round later you get Aaron Rouse.

There will always be holes to fill, and sometimes it takes a few years to fill them. But, if you push the issue to get a safety, maybe you don't have a David Bakhtiari to step in when Bulaga goes down, or a Micah Hyde to step in for Hayward.

But for the injury to Nick Collins, safety would probably bear only a casual reference now and then.

[Bretsky]

that's what every coach will say, isn't it ? It's pretty common knowledge scouts all over noted Perry was a 4-3 guy. It's not DOM's fault he has stiff hips and is limited in the range of talents one wants in a 3-4 OLB.

In the end, with safety, the Collins injury has completed tramatized this organization and if he were still around Collins and Burnettt would be a pretty dam good duo. But he's not.

So who gets held accountable that we have had junk there since he left ? Either TT has drafted the wrong guys, our secondary coaches suck, or we might need to add an assignment sure guy or two back there in terms of a quality veteran.

I know TT singed a couple free agent safeties; one might argue he was bottom feeding there with guys with minimal talent. I struggle to remember anybody good. Manual rotted. Was there a Roman's too ? I think I remember two cheap guys who played real cheap as well.

We sure do a hell of a lot better job restocking on offense than we do on defense.

[pbmax]

We sure do a hell of a lot better job restocking on offense than we do on defense.

That gets at the problem and is what McCarthy has been yapping about all offseason. It doesn't make a lot of sense that Ted can't find football players in the draft for defense but excels on offense.

The problem is scheme and fit. Capers isn't the best match of a D coach for the Packers player acquisition philosophy. He may not be as stubborn as Dick LeBeau, but he plays a scheme that works well for vets, less well for youngsters.

Its McCarthy (with Ted approval) who have hired a D coordinator that may not be the best match for the team. The 2014 question is will the changes McCarthy demanded work to alleviate the problem.

[Patler]

that's what every coach will say, isn't it ? It's pretty common knowledge scouts all over noted Perry was a 4-3 guy. It's not DOM's fault he has stiff hips and is limited in the range of talents one wants in a 3-4 OLB.

In the end, with safety, the Collins injury has completed tramatized this organization and if he were still around Collins and Burnettt would be a pretty dam good duo. But he's not.

So who gets held accountable that we have had junk there since he left ? Either TT has drafted the wrong guys, our secondary coaches suck, or we might need to add an assignment sure guy or two back there in terms of a quality veteran.

I know TT singed a couple free agent safeties; one might argue he was bottom feeding there with guys with minimal talent. I struggle to remember anybody good. Manual rotted. Was there a Roman's too ? I think I remember two cheap guys who played real cheap as well.

We sure do a hell of a lot better job restocking on offense than we do on defense.

It is neither TT's nor Capers fault that Perry can't stay healthy enough to practice, let alone play games.
When he actually is available, how Perry is used is on Capers, not TT.

As I wrote a week or so ago, I'm not sure Perry is anymore suited to a classic 4-3 DE than he is to a classic 3-4 OLB. But, the guy does have some football ability. The notion that a guy can't be effective just because he doesn't fit the classic description for the position is ridiculous, in my opinion. Two things prevent him from contributing (three if you include injuries). First and foremost it is the players attitude, his effort and willingness to accept his role and give it everything he has. Second, it's on the coaches to be creative in their use of the player, taking advantage of what he does well and minimizing reliance on what he does poorly.

[KYPack]

It is neither TT's nor Capers fault that Perry can't stay healthy enough to practice, let alone play games.
When he actually is available, how Perry is used is on Capers, not TT.

As I wrote a week or so ago, I'm not sure Perry is anymore suited to a classic 4-3 DE than he is to a classic 3-4 OLB. But, the guy does have some football ability. The notion that a guy can't be effective just because he doesn't fit the classic description for the position is ridiculous, in my opinion. Two things prevent him from contributing (three if you include injuries). First and foremost it is the players attitude, his effort and willingness to accept his role and give it everything he has. Second, it's on the coaches to be creative in their use of the player, taking advantage of what he does well and minimizing reliance on what he does poorly.

Everybody says he's be a great 4-3 DE. I doubt it. His stiff hips would get abused by OT's at DE. He also isn't violent enough with his hands to be a 4-3 DE. Sometimes you have to ignore where a guy was drafted and put him where he can do the job. Perry is a good guy to have bc we have Peppers. Julius isn't an every snap DE or OLB anymore, but with Perry getting some of the snaps, Pep can be used more effectively. Perry is a spot guy and ST type player that can be used perfectly in conjunction with our personnel.

His attitude? Yeah, it probably needs adjusting and if he doesn't do that, he won't be resigned. I think we can get a productive season out of him, which is more than I can say from other guys trying to make this roster.

[3irty1]

that's what every coach will say, isn't it ? It's pretty common knowledge scouts all over noted Perry was a 4-3 guy. It's not DOM's fault he has stiff hips and is limited in the range of talents one wants in a 3-4 OLB.

In the end, with safety, the Collins injury has completed tramatized this organization and if he were still around Collins and Burnettt would be a pretty dam good duo. But he's not.

So who gets held accountable that we have had junk there since he left ? Either TT has drafted the wrong guys, our secondary coaches suck, or we might need to add an assignment sure guy or two back there in terms of a quality veteran.

I know TT singed a couple free agent safeties; one might argue he was bottom feeding there with guys with minimal talent. I struggle to remember anybody good. Manual rotted. Was there a Roman's too ? I think I remember two cheap guys who played real cheap as well.

We sure do a hell of a lot better job restocking on offense than we do on defense.

60% is a big number. I'm one that's quick to forgive the GM because I think its a logical fallacy to assume there is always combination of possible moves and decisions that will yield a superbowl every year. The players themselves don't always play up to their potential but I'm quick to forgive them too because unless you think they aren't taking their preparation seriously or get lazy with their body. Would Micah Hyde have caught the ball with an extra hour of jugs machine drills? My feeling is no. Coaches on the other hand are responsible for both the long term philosophies and short term strategies so my thinking would be that if the right combination of decisions lies within just one guy, its got to be them simply by the huge volume of possible decisions they have. Also those decisions are less data-driven than those of a GM so the human element is more pronounced. Just my two cents.

I also don't know that we do such a better job restocking on offense. We're perpetually solid at QB and WR but the line, running backs, and TE positions have all been a roller coaster. Rodgers is a one man offense and McCarthy has shown to be a very competent game planner and play caller. Those two just mask a lot of weaknesses IMO.

On defense we've had an embarrassment of riches at the cornerback position compared to other teams. For the most part we've managed to keep a premiere pass rusher on retainer as well. Capers deserves the criticisms he gets IMO. He does have shitty luck though.

[Joemailman]

that's what every coach will say, isn't it ? It's pretty common knowledge scouts all over noted Perry was a 4-3 guy. It's not DOM's fault he has stiff hips and is limited in the range of talents one wants in a 3-4 OLB.

In the end, with safety, the Collins injury has completed tramatized this organization and if he were still around Collins and Burnettt would be a pretty dam good duo. But he's not.

So who gets held accountable that we have had junk there since he left ? Either TT has drafted the wrong guys, our secondary coaches suck, or we might need to add an assignment sure guy or two back there in terms of a quality veteran.

I know TT singed a couple free agent safeties; one might argue he was bottom feeding there with guys with minimal talent. I struggle to remember anybody good. Manual rotted. Was there a Roman's too ? I think I remember two cheap guys who played real cheap as well.

We sure do a hell of a lot better job restocking on offense than we do on defense.

I think Darren Perry is a guy who now needs to produce. He hasn't developed anybody at that position. The only outstanding performer he's had was Nick Collins, and Collins was a Pro Bowler before Perry was hired. Burnett is a pretty talented guy who regressed at a time when he should be entering the prime of his career. Perry now has arguably the best Safety from the 2014 draft, and a good, instinctive player in Hyde to go along with Burnett. If that group can't at least elevate their play into the solid category, I think coaching has to be an issue. If you're going to be a draft and develop team, then the coaches have to be able to develop young talent. Up until now, Perry hasn't done that.

[Zool]

Is Perry the coach of all the DBs or just the safeties? The Packers are starting 2 undrafted guys at CB so someone is doing something right there.

[Joemailman]

Is Perry the coach of all the DBs or just the safeties? The Packers are starting 2 undrafted guys at CB so someone is doing something right there.

On the Packers website, Perry is listed on the coaching roster as Secondary-Safeties. Joe Whitt is listed as Secondary-Cornerbacks.

Whitt was hired by McCarthy a year before bringing in Capers. Perry was hired a few weeks after the hiring of Capers in 2009, so he was probably a Capers recruit.

[Zool]

Well then Perry might just suck. There have been actual draft picks at S and no one is sticking very long.

[pbmax]

Well then Perry might just suck. There have been actual draft picks at S and no one is sticking very long.

Perry was hired by LeBeau in Pittsburgh (after being a very good safety for them) and was considered on a fast track to coordinator-ville and an eventual HC. But when Tomlin replaced Cowher, he dumped some existing coaches to put in his own people. LeBeau wouldn't comment, saying it was the HC's call.

It was an interesting maneuver, because Pittsburgh gives its defensive staff a huge amount of sway in personnel and roster moves. Tomlin was not allowed to pick his own D coordinator or scheme despite (I think) a background in defense.

Perry might have been out the door already and LeBeau was able to pass it off as an HC exercising his hiring discretion. But up to the dismissal, he was very well thought of. There were no rumors at the time that he was on the outs. New HC coaches like to have people they know on both sides of the ball, hence Winston Moss on D.

It looked like a coup at the time. But he hasn't been delivering.

[Fritz]

Big year for this defensive staff. If this season is a repeat of the last few, with a powerful offense and a lame-o defense, I think Capers will be driven into retirement and perhaps much of the defensive staff dismissed. I don't think McC will let them all go, however. I don't think he wants to completely start over on defense this far into his head coaching career with the Pack.