The Skinbasket Weighs in on New Redskins Nicknames

[mraynrand]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...nfl-team#r=rss

Seriously, this was an actual attempt to rename the franchise. First comment sounded a lot like The Skinbasket:

I don't know where to begin..... 1) the Roc's, when they share overlap with the Ravens is stupid 2) the Washington metro has NEVER used tokens and Metro's.... really. 3) Leopards is just ridiculous 4) skins with a ridiculous tribal tattoo background, I can't believe you idiots get paid for these ideas, why don't we just cut to the chase and call them the douchbags

I grew up in DC and environs and I've been a Redskins fan since I realized football was a thing. I get it, if an expansion team came out with the name Redskins they would rightfully be screamed off the map, because it is offensive. The thing people seem to ignore is that this team has had that nickname for about 80 years. Here's the other thing that bothers me; it used to be people measured intent into their outrage. Neither the organization or the fans intend for it to be offensive, we don't use it as an
epitaph, we dont have a guy in a native american costume running around, we don't do the ridiculous chop or condescending indian chants, we don't even reference scalping in our 80 year old fight song. Give us a break. If there is any group that's been marginalized to an even quasi comparable level to that of the native americans it's washingtonians who don't even have congressional representation, don't have direct control over their city budget because it has to approved by congress, and have to put up with the mouth breathers you idiots elect and send to our city so we can babysit them for 2-4-6 year terms respectively. And we don't even get a casino priviledges. If you've got enough time on your hands to really work yourself up into a phony outrage about something so banal and trivial then seriously, find a hobby. Take up knitting, or I don't know, smash your head repeatedly into a wall, whatever, just shut up and leave us alone

QFT.
The absurd 'new' ideas:

[mraynrand]

Does anyone remember when the Steamfitters local 638 fought against Purdue University and the use of "boilermakers?"

[mraynrand]

Another good one from the comments section

A few years ago a Native American school named their teams the "Fighting Whiteys", and they couldn't print enough t-shirts to keep up with the demand. People with tractor tans love the term "redneck" even though it is generally meant to be demeaning when it is used. Jeff Foxworthy is a wealthy man because of it. You might have the best solution to the problem. Name the team after some group whose signal distinction isn't it's inferiority complex. The irony is that Native Americans want to be respected, but their history as fearless fighters is what the Redskins are putting on display. The "activists" who get involved in how "demeaning" a native American team name is are establishing a new identity for Native Americans as whiners and crybabies.

[hoosier]

DC was already forced to change the name of its NBA team. No city should have to submit to more than one pc renaming...unless, of course, it is the city of taxation without representation.

[pbmax]

Its possible there was pressure on Pollin to change the name, but if there was I don't remember it. He did it himself after the killing of a friend.

In 1995, owner Abe Pollin announced he was changing the team's name because Bullets had acquired violent overtones that had made him increasingly uncomfortable over the years, particularly given the high homicide and crime rate in the early 1990s in Washington, D.C. The final straw was the assassination of his longtime friend, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin.[2]

[pbmax]

As for the Fightin' Whiteys and their shirts, the quote covers all the relevant differences. The Whitey are the majority and some/most in the area feel no particular compunction about the name being used by a minority group for profit. Its benign enough to, literally, buy into. Also, while Whitey might very well be used in a derogatory sense, there are multiple positive examples of it. Unless you are describing a potato, its not really an analogue for Redskins.

I doubt the same reaction would be had if that team was named the Fightin' Hibes or Fightin' Kikes.

The Redskins are not about to hand over a portion of ownership to Indigenous Americans nor are they currently sharing royalties over their trademarks.

Skinbasket Clone may feel that no disrespect intended washes his hands clean, but he is only one end of the communication. In a commercial enterprise, the intent of a consumer is pretty irrelevant.

[hoosier]

Its possible there was pressure on Pollin to change the name, but if there was I don't remember it. He did it himself after the killing of a friend.

Yeah, I was glibly lumping the Bullets/Wizards and Redskins together under the same cause. I couldn't remember whether the Bullet name change process was purely internal or response to external pressure, but discomfort with the name in the context of DC urban violence certainly does ring a bell.

[mraynrand]

As for the Fightin' Whiteys and their shirts, the quote covers all the relevant differences. The Whitey are the majority and some/most in the area feel no particular compunction about the name being used by a minority group for profit. Its benign enough to, literally, buy into. Also, while Whitey might very well be used in a derogatory sense, there are multiple positive examples of it. Unless you are describing a potato, its not really an analogue for Redskins.

I doubt the same reaction would be had if that team was named the Fightin' Hibes or Fightin' Kikes.

The Redskins are not about to hand over a portion of ownership to Indigenous Americans nor are they currently sharing royalties over their trademarks.

Skinbasket Clone may feel that no disrespect intended washes his hands clean, but he is only one end of the communication. In a commercial enterprise, the intent of a consumer is pretty irrelevant.

Certainly the minority bullets in society feel discrimination, even though there are positive examples of them

[mraynrand]

Pollin was a real deep thinker. I suspect he liked the bullets that killed Nazi SS members.

[pbmax]

(re: Pollin) Yeah, it was long ago I had to look up the particulars. In fact, that story seems almost too pat, but I couldn't find an account contrary to those facts. Who knows, he might have needed to put fannies in the seats and thought it would help. I just don't remember a campaign over it.

I don't have much patience for legal means to force the Redskins nickname to change*, but I am equally impatient with people who try to dodge that the Redskins name is a slur. Its just an excuse to make the fans feel better, but its a slur none-the-less. Also, while Skinbasket clone feels better that his stadium doesn't do the chop or have a Native American in full dress roaming the sideline, he should take time to mention the helmet logo.

Opponents just ought to play the long game and continually remind fans that they are celebrating a racial slur.

A better question is the Warriors nickname. That one makes the most sense.

*Great moment in judicial non-understanding over this issue. In a lawsuit over the Redskin nickname that was ultimately lost by the plaintiffs, the ruling judge held as fact that it could not be proven that a plurality or majority of Indigenous People in the area felt disrespected over the name. He concluded that such information was a practical impossibility and that the polling data that the plaintiff had submitted was just a poll of certain people and couldn't possibly, correctly convey the sentiment of the whole population.

[pbmax]

Pollin was a real deep thinker. I suspect he liked the bullets that killed Nazi SS members.

The people of DC were similarly confused, if memory serves. Most people thought it referred to train travel.

[mraynrand]

The Redskins are not about to hand over a portion of ownership to Indigenous Americans nor are they currently sharing royalties over their trademarks.

It would be kinda hard to do that, considering the trademark represents a symbol of native americans that no longer exists. Where would you go to share royalties with gladiators? Maybe a case could be made for the Fighting Irish but I suppose you'd have to stop those majority people from pummeling you to hand over the cash.

[pbmax]

It would be kinda hard to do that, considering the trademark represents a symbol of native americans that no longer exists. Where would you go to share royalties with gladiators? Maybe a case could be made for the Fighting Irish but I suppose you'd have to stop those majority people from pummeling you to hand over the cash.

I would have to stop the Fightin' Irish lawyers first, then the NCAA. Would be broke and dead before I got to the actual Irish.

[mraynrand]

*Great moment in judicial non-understanding over this issue. In a lawsuit over the Redskin nickname that was ultimately lost by the plaintiffs, the ruling judge held as fact that it could not be proven that a plurality or majority of Indigenous People in the area felt disrespected over the name. He concluded that such information was a practical impossibility and that the polling data that the plaintiff had submitted was just a poll of certain people and couldn't possibly, correctly convey the sentiment of the whole population.

But your previous post seems to suggest that the two critical elements of a derogatory symbol have to be 1) that it represents a (presumably oppressed) minority, and 2) that the symbol actually has to be viewed as offensive by the purportedly offended party. Which helps explain the reality that the Seminoles like being represented by a college team.

[mraynrand]

I should point out before the real Skinbasket shows up that he mey very well be pissed that I attached his name to this thread, but with the level of Skinbasket love lately, I felt compelled to hitch my thread to a popular figure. I will probably be sued by the same people who are going after Chief Wahoo.

[pbmax]

But your previous post seems to suggest that the two critical elements of a derogatory symbol have to be 1) that it represents a (presumably oppressed) minority, and 2) that the symbol actually has to be viewed as offensive by the purportedly offended party. Which helps explain the reality that the Seminoles like being represented by a college team.

I do not recall the basis the judge used to dismiss or find in favor of the defendant. My criteria are just my criteria, not from that case.

But I find the idea of random sample polling (correctly done) as not representative of the larger whole to be an attack on reason in general.

[hoosier]

we dont have a guy in a native american costume running around, we don't do the ridiculous chop or condescending indian chants, we don't even reference scalping in our 80 year old fight song.

Just for the record (because I really don't have a dog in this race, because I agree with the sentiment about DC citizens getting shafted, and because the rant itself is funny), but Skinbasketclone's apologia does contain a number of half-truths that compromise the strength of argument:

We don't have a guy in a native american costume running around: Who is this "we"? Does it include Chief Zee, the "unofficial mascot" of the Skins?

we don't do the ridiculous chop or condescending indian chants, we don't even reference scalping in our 80 year old fight song: That is because today's version has been largely sanitized (except for the "braves on the warpath" line) Guess which ones were eliminated--considerably less than 80 years ago.

Hail to the Redskins!

Hail Victory!

Braves on the Warpath!

Fight for old Dixie!

Run or pass and score -- we want a lot more!

Scalp 'em, swamp 'em -- We will take 'em big score

Read 'em, weep 'em, touchdown - we want heap more

Fight on, Fight on -- 'Till you have won

Sons of Wash-ing-ton. Rah!, Rah!, Rah!

[MadScientist]

If they just told Dan that changing the name would result in a ton of crap with the new name being sold, I'd bet he'd consider it.

The could change the name to the Pig Skins which would keep the 'Skins nickname and also work with the 'hogs' name for the o-line. The Pig Skins name would only offend PETA, and offending them is a good thing.

[mraynrand]

Hail to the Redskins!

Hail Victory!

Braves on the Warpath!

Fight for old Dixie!

Run or pass and score -- we want a lot more!

Scalp 'em, swamp 'em -- We will take 'em big score

Read 'em, weep 'em, touchdown - we want heap more

Fight on, Fight on -- 'Till you have won

Sons of Wash-ing-ton. Rah!, Rah!, Rah!

You could get 'em away with that years ago, but not now when owe heap money to casino

[mraynrand]

I do not recall the basis the judge used to dismiss or find in favor of the defendant. My criteria are just my criteria, not from that case.

But I find the idea of random sample polling (correctly done) as not representative of the larger whole to be an attack on reason in general.

I agree with the second, and as to the first, I meant what I gleaned to be your criteria, and what I think should be the criteria generally