Official Non NFC North NFL News 2014 (Unofficial Johnny Manziel)

[Patler]

I don't even know that I'd say Vick was more productive. Cunningham was very good in his prime, and the focus of that Eagles offense, and had 3 consecutive seasons around 3500 yards, good for top 10 in the late 80's. Add in his rushing yards, and he was a force.

I don't remember him as being fast, but thinking about it, he must've been of course. He had an amazing arm, I remember some cross field throws where he'd roll out one way, then throw across the field with accuracy and velocity.

What I remember most, and was most surprised by, was his big season in Minnesota, playing jump ball with Moss and Carter going over 1000 yards. I also remember he'd pretty much entirely stopped running the ball at that point, and was mostly a pocket passer! I doubt Vick will ever transition to that.

Even going back only to Cunningham, the game was different then. Whereas their overall passing stats are somewhat similar, Cunningham had 5 seasons with stats that put him in the top 10 in most categories, and once lead the league in QB rating. Vick has not found his way to the top 10 except an isolated instance or two. The game has gotten easier for throwers, to the point that even Favre's records are not likely to last long even if Manning doesn't break them in the next couple seasons or three. (The TD record could be Mannings this season.)

[pbmax]

Cunningham was very fast. Per an article I saw today, he claims to have run a 4.29 in the 40 once, and was actually timed at 4.4, which is impressive since QBs did not work out for running speed and quickness like they do today. In his prime Vick was certainly faster and quicker than Cunningham ever was, but Cunningham was pretty impressive for his time.

I don't agree that Vick was a more skilled passer. Going on memory yesterday, I would have said Cunningham was the better passer; but after looking at their career stats, they are remarkably similar in completion %, int. %, avg/comp., QB rating, etc. Even their best seasons stats for passing are quite similar.

Vick may have taken the concept of a running QB to a more productive level, but he was by no means the originator of the concept.

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Well a 4.4 would be impressive because I remember his size as much as his speed.

But I don't read the ESPN article as a comment about all of football history. I think he is talking about the present passer situation, although its not explicitly stated, that seems to be the context of the question he was asked.

And I do think, more than any modern running QB, he was the guy who coaches were willing to tailor their offense for. And that was new. The real argument is whether Vick represented a generational upgrade in skills, or if coaches had decided that a franchise QB was more important than a lesser skilled, but traditional, pocket passer.

Interestingly, Cunningham's greatest success came in a system devoted to deep passing in Minnesota.

[Patler]

Interestingly, Cunningham's greatest success came in a system devoted to deep passing in Minnesota.

... and as Guiness pointed out, at a time when he had assumed a more conventional QB playing style.

[Guiness]

Even going back only to Cunningham, the game was different then. Whereas their overall passing stats are somewhat similar, Cunningham had 5 seasons with stats that put him in the top 10 in most categories, and once lead the league in QB rating. Vick has not found his way to the top 10 except an isolated instance or two. The game has gotten easier for throwers, to the point that even Favre's records are not likely to last long even if Manning doesn't break them in the next couple seasons or three. (The TD record could be Mannings this season.)

Yup, that was my point - given the comparative state of the game at the time, I'd probably class Cunningham as more productive.

I commented in another thread on some of the passing numbers not that long ago, a link to some games from the 80s I think, there was an awful lot of sub-200 yard passing games as recently as that.

[Patler]

Yup, that was my point - given the comparative state of the game at the time, I'd probably class Cunningham as more productive.

I commented in another thread on some of the passing numbers not that long ago, a link to some games from the 80s I think, there was an awful lot of sub-200 yard passing games as recently as that.

Ya, I was agreeing with you without saying it. I am reverting back to my original thought yesterday without looking at the stats, that Cunningham was the better passer. I waffled this morning when I looked at their career stats, which are about the same. But I neglected to consider the different times in which they played. When you compare them within their own time, I think the nod goes to Cunningham as the better passer, for doing as well as Vick in a time period when it was more difficult to put up those kinds of numbers.

[Brandon494]

The rules, where the QB is protected far more than the past is making qbs who can move more valuable as their injury risk is going down. That has more to do with it than Vick. Also, I have been influenced by Patlers history lesson and would say, "Vick didn't revolutionize anything"

The rules only protect QBs who stay in the pocket, once they leave the pocket they are fair game.

[mraynrand]

Otto Graham wasn't a good runner, but he was an effective runner.

[Joemailman]

The year before Vick was drafted, both Daunte Culpepper and Donovan McNabb had about 700 rushing yards and 7 TD's as well as being among the NFL's top passers. So I don't get the idea that Vick was some sort of trend-setter. There's no way Vick would have been the #1 pick in the draft without those guys, as well as Cunningham paving the way. Those guys broke down the barriers, not Vick.

[mraynrand]

What barriers are you talking about. At one point there was a barrier for black QBs, but that really has nothing to do with 'barriers' to a running QB. I guess you could say traditional offensive schemes were a barrier, as coaches as times are reticent to try new things. But most important are skill sets and consequences. Very few QBs have the skill set to run well and pass accurately and then those that run too much get hurt more. The combination of those things kept and keep running-heavy QBs away from starting spots.

Someone (PBmax?) a while ago on these boards suggested that the game might change overall, and that a form of more temporary QB might come into popularity, where coaches dump fewer schemes on a young guy's head and ask him to run more and then expect him to last fewer years. If you see this trend in college ball more and more, it's probably inevitable in the NFL - especially if teams hope to contain salaries. But somehow I doubt this will be a widespread trend, because the combination of skills is just too rare - even if you start stressing it and coaching at the the Pop Warner level on up.

[Just Jeff]

This tread is racist.

No examples of white QBs that can scramble. Tarkenton

[Brandon494]

The year before Vick was drafted, both Daunte Culpepper and Donovan McNabb had about 700 rushing yards and 7 TD's as well as being among the NFL's top passers. So I don't get the idea that Vick was some sort of trend-setter. There's no way Vick would have been the #1 pick in the draft without those guys, as well as Cunningham paving the way. Those guys broke down the barriers, not Vick.

Guess you didn't watch Vick in college.

[mraynrand]

This tread is racist.

No examples of white QBs that can scramble. Tarkenton

love me some KFC

[Guiness]

Guess you didn't watch Vick in college.

Meh. Watched the first 4 highlights, all of him running.

[pbmax]

The year before Vick was drafted, both Daunte Culpepper and Donovan McNabb had about 700 rushing yards and 7 TD's as well as being among the NFL's top passers. So I don't get the idea that Vick was some sort of trend-setter. There's no way Vick would have been the #1 pick in the draft without those guys, as well as Cunningham paving the way. Those guys broke down the barriers, not Vick.

Both of those guys scrambled from within conventional O schemes. McNabb even sat for a brief time, as a rookie, to learn the west coast system.

It was thought, at the time, that a scheme would need to be developed to take advantage of Vick's unique skills. Reeves went part of the way there but the called runs were limited. Vick's part in this story is that he bridged two different philosophies among offensive coaches as well as his unique skills.

[pbmax]

This tread is racist.
[IMG]http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/ima
No examples of white QBs that can scramble. Tarkenton

Scrambled yes. Ran for yardage, not so much. Tarkenton was 6 foot and under 200 lbs.

[Brandon494]

Meh. Watched the first 4 highlights, all of him running.

Highlights of Michael Vick running? Get out of town!!!

[Joemailman]

If Vick revolutionized the way the position is played, why is it that 13 years after he entered the NFL, there are really only 2 or 3 starting QB's (RGIII, Kaep, Newton), with that style of play?

[mraynrand]

If Vick revolutionized the way the position is played, why is it that 13 years after he entered the NFL, there are really only 2 or 3 starting QB's (RGIII, Kaep, Newton), with that style of play?

Even Trotsky got lonely on weekends without Lenin and Marx.

[Guiness]

Highlights of Michael Vick running? Get out of town!!!

Just found it interesting that a video posted to show what a great QB Vick is featured a string of running plays.

[pbmax]

If Vick revolutionized the way the position is played, why is it that 13 years after he entered the NFL, there are really only 2 or 3 starting QB's (RGIII, Kaep, Newton), with that style of play?

NFL still wants you to have a big-time, NFL arm. So they have adjusted their run and pass games some, but still want NFL throws. There aren't many in college who do that, even of there are many more great runners (Tebow, Young, Pryor).