The Defense - Again, the Defense :(

[3irty1]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

[wist43]

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Couldn't disagree more - it's scheme much more than talent.

You can't line up with 4 guys in the box and expect to stop the run - and that should be the end of that portion of the debate.

You can't line up with 6 guys in your "front seven", and expect to consistently stop the run.

You can't always play nickel against 3 wides - especially when the down distance is 3rd or 4th and short. All the OC need do is throw 3 wides out there, and he knows Capers will abandon the middle of the field. Result?? Easy 1st down.

You can't play man 24/7 - especially underneath. It makes it far to easy for OC's to create huge voids underneath and in the middle. Matchup zones have evolved tremendously in the past decade or so... the Packers haven't noticed, but much of the rest of the league manages.

Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

Yes, we lost talent - and there is to be expected a dropoff and transition. But what Capers has done has made everything worse. He has in no way tailored a scheme and gameplans according to the talent TT has given him. TT brought in a lot of good DL talent, and Capers proceeded to park those guys on the bench.

TT did nothing to improve our ILB situation, yet Capers schemed to ensure that those guys were on the field 24/7 - and the focal point of the defense.

Capers turned a difficult situation into a disaster - yes, we have less talent than the SB year, but Capers has made everything worse - much worse.

The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

Rule changes have opened up the middle a bit more. What with "hitting a defenseless player", and the chuck rule... but that does not account for Green Bay's completely abandoning the middle of the field.

The rules do not say, "... the offensive player must be uncovered, and be allowed to make the catch".

The mess in the secondary seems to be somewhat less of a mess - but it is still a mess. That's coaching.

If a player doesn't know where he is supposed to be?? That's coaching.

As often as not, our defense looks like the keystone cops... some of the mess seems to have been cleaned up - but there is no doubt that the Packers are fielding one of the worst defenses in the league - and 95% of what is wrong can be summed up in one word - dunderdummy.

[3irty1]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

[wist43]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??

[3irty1]

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??

"The box" isn't some amorphous shape you get to draw such that it excludes both OLB's. Sometimes our slot corner is there as well and once in a while a safety. Your commentary/obsessions on our formations would mean something if you knew a tenth of what you think you know. You'd love to centralize all the blame on one guy to the point where you just implied that Sam Shields peaking in the backfield was a Dom Capers play call. I see more variables than that and I don't think its as simple as you'd like it to be. One internet loon's hyperbole rants about how Dom is an even crazier more incompetent loon isn't so much writing on the wall as it is scratching in a restroom stall.

[wist43]

"The box" isn't some amorphous shape you get to draw such that it excludes both OLB's. Sometimes our slot corner is there as well and once in a while a safety. Your commentary/obsessions on our formations would mean something if you knew a tenth of what you think you know. You'd love to centralize all the blame on one guy to the point where you just implied that Sam Shields peaking in the backfield was a Dom Capers play call. I see more variables than that and I don't think its as simple as you'd like it to be. One internet loon's hyperbole rants about how Dom is an even crazier more incompetent loon isn't so much writing on the wall as it is scratching in a restroom stall.

You're unbelievable, lol... of course it was a Capers play call!!!

You must not have watched the video I posted of Seattle's Brock Huard breaking down that play and explaining that Seattle reacted to how Capers was defending that action... they set him up, and he walked right into it - of course it was on Capers.

If you like giving up 235 yds rushing/game, and leaving WR's running free all over the field?? Capers is ur man.

[3irty1]

You're unbelievable, lol... of course it was a Capers play call!!!

You must not have watched the video I posted of Seattle's Brock Huard breaking down that play and explaining that Seattle reacted to how Capers was defending that action... they set him up, and he walked right into it - of course it was on Capers.

If you like giving up 235 yds rushing/game, and leaving WR's running free all over the field?? Capers is ur man.

Capers' play call may have put Sam between a rock and a hard place, that shit happens, but he still botched the assignment by abandoning his man. It should have been an 8 yard run. Sam has a history of peeking in the backfield every since being in the league, that's a Seattle play call targeting that tendency. Absolutely terrible example to try and pin on Capers. The premise of your argument is that Dom Capers hold's an entire team's worth of incompetence and that argument is almost entirely from incredulity.

Nobody is saying the defense is fine or that Capers is blameless. I could call you an apologist for Thompson and the players because you're shifting their blame onto Capers. Hell Thompson is the real general. The buck stops here right? Your tiresome rants from repetition are more unsound than anything Capers has ever put on the field. If you want to be taken seriously by me you'll have to cut the logical fallacies, the overblown exaggeration, and back up claims. So probably never.

[pbmax]

it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS

No, that's called a fantastically designed play that even defeated Saban's defense. Sometimes you get caught in the wrong defense and the O gets one on you. When you have a rookie safety who did not react fast enough, that's even worse for the D.

Most of the other monster misdirection plays the Packers have been allowing are players not being cognizant of the backside of the defense and over-committing play side.

[wist43]

No, that's called a fantastically designed play that even defeated Saban's defense. Sometimes you get caught in the wrong defense and the O gets one on you. When you have a rookie safety who did not react fast enough, that's even worse for the D.

Most of the other monster misdirection plays the Packers have been allowing are players not being cognizant of the backside of the defense and over-committing play side.

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

[pbmax]

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

You think an offense has never caught a defense unprepared with a play? How many times have you seen a read-option pass to the weak side with a one receiver route?

You think there is some magical defensive alignment and scheme that allows both attack and is solid from sideline to sideline with no weakness against ANY play call?

A magical defense that never lets an opponent get into free space and catch a ball? A defense that doesn't have, even hidden, an exposed pressure point?

The problem with your litany of complaints is that it ranges from the mundane to the exotic. Run defense in nickel and dime is a problem. Preparing for every unknown read option wrinkle is not.

[KYPack]

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

Wist, I think you are hung up on the DC and his schemes, So you blame the coach and the x's & O's. I tend to think it is the Jimmys and the Joe's. There is a problem in the execution and players are ultimately responsible. Peppers and others got sucked in last week and gave up some big plays.

One way or the other, we got troubles. We are dead last in rushing D in the NFL. Last with a bullet. We are the only team that has allowed over 700 yards rushing this season. Our opponents average 176 yds/gm. That's also worst in the NFL. Hell, Oakland is only allowing 158/gm. We've given up 42 rushing first downs, also the worst number of all 32 teams. Oakland has only allowed 32 rushing 1st dns. Many times, excessive totals happen because a team has been gashed by long rushes. Not us. We've only given up 3 runs over twenty and none over forty. We are getting pounded by the run in smaller chunks than the other shitty rushing D's.

If this don't pick up, we'll be lucky to wind up 8-8.

We have played some excellent running ball clubs and we will have better numbers when we play some of the more pedestrian running clubs.

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.