The Defense - Again, the Defense :(

[wist43]

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Couldn't disagree more - it's scheme much more than talent.

You can't line up with 4 guys in the box and expect to stop the run - and that should be the end of that portion of the debate.

You can't line up with 6 guys in your "front seven", and expect to consistently stop the run.

You can't always play nickel against 3 wides - especially when the down distance is 3rd or 4th and short. All the OC need do is throw 3 wides out there, and he knows Capers will abandon the middle of the field. Result?? Easy 1st down.

You can't play man 24/7 - especially underneath. It makes it far to easy for OC's to create huge voids underneath and in the middle. Matchup zones have evolved tremendously in the past decade or so... the Packers haven't noticed, but much of the rest of the league manages.

Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

Yes, we lost talent - and there is to be expected a dropoff and transition. But what Capers has done has made everything worse. He has in no way tailored a scheme and gameplans according to the talent TT has given him. TT brought in a lot of good DL talent, and Capers proceeded to park those guys on the bench.

TT did nothing to improve our ILB situation, yet Capers schemed to ensure that those guys were on the field 24/7 - and the focal point of the defense.

Capers turned a difficult situation into a disaster - yes, we have less talent than the SB year, but Capers has made everything worse - much worse.

The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

Rule changes have opened up the middle a bit more. What with "hitting a defenseless player", and the chuck rule... but that does not account for Green Bay's completely abandoning the middle of the field.

The rules do not say, "... the offensive player must be uncovered, and be allowed to make the catch".

The mess in the secondary seems to be somewhat less of a mess - but it is still a mess. That's coaching.

If a player doesn't know where he is supposed to be?? That's coaching.

As often as not, our defense looks like the keystone cops... some of the mess seems to have been cleaned up - but there is no doubt that the Packers are fielding one of the worst defenses in the league - and 95% of what is wrong can be summed up in one word - dunderdummy.

[3irty1]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

[wist43]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??

[3irty1]

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??

"The box" isn't some amorphous shape you get to draw such that it excludes both OLB's. Sometimes our slot corner is there as well and once in a while a safety. Your commentary/obsessions on our formations would mean something if you knew a tenth of what you think you know. You'd love to centralize all the blame on one guy to the point where you just implied that Sam Shields peaking in the backfield was a Dom Capers play call. I see more variables than that and I don't think its as simple as you'd like it to be. One internet loon's hyperbole rants about how Dom is an even crazier more incompetent loon isn't so much writing on the wall as it is scratching in a restroom stall.

[wist43]

"The box" isn't some amorphous shape you get to draw such that it excludes both OLB's. Sometimes our slot corner is there as well and once in a while a safety. Your commentary/obsessions on our formations would mean something if you knew a tenth of what you think you know. You'd love to centralize all the blame on one guy to the point where you just implied that Sam Shields peaking in the backfield was a Dom Capers play call. I see more variables than that and I don't think its as simple as you'd like it to be. One internet loon's hyperbole rants about how Dom is an even crazier more incompetent loon isn't so much writing on the wall as it is scratching in a restroom stall.

You're unbelievable, lol... of course it was a Capers play call!!!

You must not have watched the video I posted of Seattle's Brock Huard breaking down that play and explaining that Seattle reacted to how Capers was defending that action... they set him up, and he walked right into it - of course it was on Capers.

If you like giving up 235 yds rushing/game, and leaving WR's running free all over the field?? Capers is ur man.

[3irty1]

You're unbelievable, lol... of course it was a Capers play call!!!

You must not have watched the video I posted of Seattle's Brock Huard breaking down that play and explaining that Seattle reacted to how Capers was defending that action... they set him up, and he walked right into it - of course it was on Capers.

If you like giving up 235 yds rushing/game, and leaving WR's running free all over the field?? Capers is ur man.

Capers' play call may have put Sam between a rock and a hard place, that shit happens, but he still botched the assignment by abandoning his man. It should have been an 8 yard run. Sam has a history of peeking in the backfield every since being in the league, that's a Seattle play call targeting that tendency. Absolutely terrible example to try and pin on Capers. The premise of your argument is that Dom Capers hold's an entire team's worth of incompetence and that argument is almost entirely from incredulity.

Nobody is saying the defense is fine or that Capers is blameless. I could call you an apologist for Thompson and the players because you're shifting their blame onto Capers. Hell Thompson is the real general. The buck stops here right? Your tiresome rants from repetition are more unsound than anything Capers has ever put on the field. If you want to be taken seriously by me you'll have to cut the logical fallacies, the overblown exaggeration, and back up claims. So probably never.

[wist43]

Capers' play call may have put Sam between a rock and a hard place, that shit happens, but he still botched the assignment by abandoning his man. It should have been an 8 yard run. Sam has a history of peeking in the backfield every since being in the league, that's a Seattle play call targeting that tendency. Absolutely terrible example to try and pin on Capers. The premise of your argument is that Dom Capers hold's an entire team's worth of incompetence and that argument is almost entirely from incredulity.

Nobody is saying the defense is fine or that Capers is blameless. I could call you an apologist for Thompson and the players because you're shifting their blame onto Capers. Hell Thompson is the real general. The buck stops here right? Your tiresome rants from repetition are more unsound than anything Capers has ever put on the field. If you want to be taken seriously by me you'll have to cut the logical fallacies, the overblown exaggeration, and back up claims. So probably never.

Sam was not between a rock and a hard place - he did what he was assigned to do. Everyone has acknowledged that Shields reacted properly within the misguided design of the defense - he was supposed to abandon the receiver, and the safety was supposed to pick him up, i.e. the design was unsound. That is entirely on Capers.

Seattle's offensive coaches saw it earlier in the game, and knew that if they ran that play, Shields would crash and Lockette would be left alone with only a rookie safety, several yards off, between Lockette and a TD. We all saw the result - Wilson laughing and looking back at his coach as if to say, "... yep, it was there for the takin'... easy peazy".

We are giving up 176 yds/game on the ground; we have allowed record setting performances to opponents; we have been repeatedly embarrassed in the playoffs and on national TV; we have had one of the worst defenses in the league for several years running - those are not "exaggerations" - that is the sad reality of Dom Capers defense.

--------------------------------------------

As for Thompson and the players he's brought in... I've never wavered from my position - good players, bad fit for the 3-4. It was up to Capers to adjust his scheme to make use of those players - he's never done that.

If there is blame for Thompson it is two-fold, i.e. the players he drafts not being a good fit; and 2) not forcing Capers to adapt; and 2a) failing that, firing his ass for not making it work.

Any way you slice it - there is plenty of blame to go around, and there is no accountability.

I keep hoping Capers will get his head out of his ass, but that hope isn't realistic; he does fundamentally unsound things on a regular basis; he doesn't think the opponent will run the ball - ever; he plays russian rhoulette with how he deploys his defensive fronts - almost always foresaking the interior line; he puts incredible pressure on players at the point of attack, with little hope of getting support there in time; on and on....

There is simply no defense for Capers.

[pbmax]

it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS

No, that's called a fantastically designed play that even defeated Saban's defense. Sometimes you get caught in the wrong defense and the O gets one on you. When you have a rookie safety who did not react fast enough, that's even worse for the D.

Most of the other monster misdirection plays the Packers have been allowing are players not being cognizant of the backside of the defense and over-committing play side.

[wist43]

No, that's called a fantastically designed play that even defeated Saban's defense. Sometimes you get caught in the wrong defense and the O gets one on you. When you have a rookie safety who did not react fast enough, that's even worse for the D.

Most of the other monster misdirection plays the Packers have been allowing are players not being cognizant of the backside of the defense and over-committing play side.

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

[pbmax]

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

You think an offense has never caught a defense unprepared with a play? How many times have you seen a read-option pass to the weak side with a one receiver route?

You think there is some magical defensive alignment and scheme that allows both attack and is solid from sideline to sideline with no weakness against ANY play call?

A magical defense that never lets an opponent get into free space and catch a ball? A defense that doesn't have, even hidden, an exposed pressure point?

The problem with your litany of complaints is that it ranges from the mundane to the exotic. Run defense in nickel and dime is a problem. Preparing for every unknown read option wrinkle is not.

[wist43]

You think an offense has never caught a defense unprepared with a play? How many times have you seen a read-option pass to the weak side with a one receiver route?

You think there is some magical defensive alignment and scheme that allows both attack and is solid from sideline to sideline with no weakness against ANY play call?

A magical defense that never lets an opponent get into free space and catch a ball? A defense that doesn't have, even hidden, an exposed pressure point?

The problem with your litany of complaints is that it ranges from the mundane to the exotic. Run defense in nickel and dime is a problem. Preparing for every unknown read option wrinkle is not.

Of course you're going to get beat - once in a while; of course a team is going to get the better of you - once in a while; of course you're going to zig when you should have zagged...

We're not witnessing any of that - what we're witnessing is play after play failure; game after game failure; season after season failure... it's the same crap over and over again.

I'm not the bad guy here - I'm just pointing out the obvious, or at least what should be obvious. You guys seem to lack the stones to call a spade a spade - when is enough ever enough for you kool-aid drinkers??

You guys don't believe in accountability - lucky for you, neither does MM or TT.

[KYPack]

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

Wist, I think you are hung up on the DC and his schemes, So you blame the coach and the x's & O's. I tend to think it is the Jimmys and the Joe's. There is a problem in the execution and players are ultimately responsible. Peppers and others got sucked in last week and gave up some big plays.

One way or the other, we got troubles. We are dead last in rushing D in the NFL. Last with a bullet. We are the only team that has allowed over 700 yards rushing this season. Our opponents average 176 yds/gm. That's also worst in the NFL. Hell, Oakland is only allowing 158/gm. We've given up 42 rushing first downs, also the worst number of all 32 teams. Oakland has only allowed 32 rushing 1st dns. Many times, excessive totals happen because a team has been gashed by long rushes. Not us. We've only given up 3 runs over twenty and none over forty. We are getting pounded by the run in smaller chunks than the other shitty rushing D's.

If this don't pick up, we'll be lucky to wind up 8-8.

We have played some excellent running ball clubs and we will have better numbers when we play some of the more pedestrian running clubs.

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

[Carolina_Packer]

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

Totally agree. So, there's the big question...how will they do it? So is it poor scheme or poor execution of scheme? While that debate rages on, can someone give us some hope here? McCarthy said in his press conferences following the game that the mistakes he is seeing with the run D are all correctable. I hope he's right. OK, putting aside whether Capers should stay or go for now (he's staying the rest of the year at least), what will they be correcting specifically? What adjustments might they make? Is it just guys getting pushed around? Is it guys out of position, losing gap responsibility?

Let's not forget we're all Packer fans. I hope they can get these problems worked out.

[wist43]

Wist, I think you are hung up on the DC and his schemes, So you blame the coach and the x's & O's. I tend to think it is the Jimmys and the Joe's. There is a problem in the execution and players are ultimately responsible. Peppers and others got sucked in last week and gave up some big plays.

One way or the other, we got troubles. We are dead last in rushing D in the NFL. Last with a bullet. We are the only team that has allowed over 700 yards rushing this season. Our opponents average 176 yds/gm. That's also worst in the NFL. Hell, Oakland is only allowing 158/gm. We've given up 42 rushing first downs, also the worst number of all 32 teams. Oakland has only allowed 32 rushing 1st dns. Many times, excessive totals happen because a team has been gashed by long rushes. Not us. We've only given up 3 runs over twenty and none over forty. We are getting pounded by the run in smaller chunks than the other shitty rushing D's.

If this don't pick up, we'll be lucky to wind up 8-8.

We have played some excellent running ball clubs and we will have better numbers when we play some of the more pedestrian running clubs.

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

If a DC is putting his players in positions to be successful - and then they are not making plays, are not making the tackle, are not forcing the play inside, et al, whatever their responsibility is - then you can say it is on the players.

But when a DC is putting his players in impossible situations, or such difficult situations that it is calling for the player to make a superhuman play - then there is something wrong with what the DC is doing.

As I said to Max - once in a while?? sure... it's gonna happen, and a defense is going to be out of position, or outschemed on a given play, etc; but we're not seeing a bad play call here and there, or a bad game plan on occassion, or a couple of bad games per season, etc. What we're seeing is a mess on just about every snap, in every game for the past 4 seasons.

And it is philosophical - Capers does not view controlling the LOS and being stout up the middle as being important, and it is painfully obvious. We are dead last in rush defense - and we have been utterly pathetic in just about every aspect of playing defense for years running now.

What Capers is doing is fundamentally unsound - I don't know how else to say it. If something is unsound - it will collapse; and that is what we've been witness to for the past 60 games or so... over and over again.