The Defense - Again, the Defense :(

[wist43]

Wist is already teetering on the verge of major heart failure; if the Packers employed that look he'd have the big one and be gone. Don't let Capers unveil that look!

That's more of an amoeba look... don't know what Ryan's problems are - one thing I know for sure, Dom Capers can't care Rob Ryan's jock.

Capers couldn't care less about the middle of the field, and he's proven that for several years running. Whether it is stopping the run up the middle, or making receivers pay over the middle - Capers simply doesn't think that is real estate worth contesting.

The Bears smashed us over and over again up the middle and over the middle... that's all on Capers. He simply doesn't belong in the league anymore - hopefully TT will get that figured out by years end.

We win a game b/c of our offense, and suddenly you guys think we have a defense?? lol... More good news - we get to play the anemic Vikings on Thursday... On our way to the SB again are we?? You guys are such bandwagon jumpers - both on and off

[Carolina_Packer]

In the words of Lombardi, "what the hell is going on out there?" The defense, save for a couple of turnovers was as bad as the offense was good today. It reminded me of 2011 all over again. Lots of yards, big plays, some turnovers created, bend, but don't break. The best defense is the offense getting a big lead, not being able to run the ball effectively...you know the story.

Calling all Packerrats who understand schemes and formations. What are you seeing from a scheme/personnel standpoint that is allowing the Packers defense to get gashed? What could/should Capers be doing to get this fixed? This is embarrassing. If the Packers can't stop the run, and give up almost a first down on every opposing offensive snap, how can they ever hope to get pressure? There's no obvious passing down on second/third and manageable, and if the Packers are getting gashed in the run game, why would the opposing offense ever let up?

Again, I get that they won today and that makes me happy, but if this goes the way of 2011's defense, if/when we get to the post season, it will be the same story. The Packers will face a superior defense that will find a way to take away what the offense wants to do, and then the defense not having a big lead to hold onto will be exposed again. Rather than just bitching about what Capers is not doing, it would and interesting discussion to hear from some of you scheme gurus to see what the Packers could do to fix the defense to fix what ails them.

[pbmax]

The middle two guys in nickel (Daniels and Jones) for pass rush or for run D (Boyd and one of Guion/Daniels) are playing terrible. The Bears game was significant because even Daniels wasn't up to his normal level.

Add to that the ends and SAM linebacker taking terrible angles and abandoning gaps. Peppers has been the best at this, but Matthews, Lattimore, Neal, Jones and the safeties has been really loose in gap discipline. Outside of Peppers, the only guy steady on the end has been Perry which is why you keep seeing him in the second half when there is a lead. I have no idea why Burnett is close to the LOS and Ha Ha is deep.

Remember the jumbo formation the Packers would line up to guard against Peterson in 2012 (Raji, Pickett and Wilson)? It was terrible against him for two games and it wasn't for lack of size. Everyone was playing their own gap and nothing else. Some were penetrating, others were waiting. No one stayed in their gap and got off the block. Raji was in the backfield but whiffing. Despite talent and size, it was terrible run defense.

Same thing here. Someone is ALWAYS out of position and those interior D lineman are not helping, they are getting moved which gives the back space and time. Matthews is still getting used to being in the middle. He loves to react quickly and chase, but in the middle that is recipe for disaster.

Part of this is talent, the interior guys are not dominating players. But a lot of it is getting used to the scheme and knowing where their teammates are going to be. When to freelance and when to sit in a gap. It also doesn't help that the only guy in the backend who knows how to tackle is Ha-Ha.

[Carolina_Packer]

The middle two guys in nickel (Daniels and Jones) for pass rush or for run D (Boyd and one of Guion/Daniels) are playing terrible. The Bears game was significant because even Daniels wasn't up to his normal level.

Add to that the ends and SAM linebacker taking terrible angles and abandoning gaps. Peppers has been the best at this, but Matthews, Lattimore, Neal, Jones and the safeties has been really loose in gap discipline. Outside of Peppers, the only guy steady on the end has been Perry which is why you keep seeing him in the second half when there is a lead. I have no idea why Burnett is close to the LOS and Ha Ha is deep.

Remember the jumbo formation the Packers would line up to guard against Peterson in 2012 (Raji, Pickett and Wilson)? It was terrible against him for two games and it wasn't for lack of size. Everyone was playing their own gap and nothing else. Some were penetrating, others were waiting. No one stayed in their gap and got off the block. Raji was in the backfield but whiffing. Despite talent and size, it was terrible run defense.

Same thing here. Someone is ALWAYS out of position and those interior D lineman are not helping, they are getting moved which gives the back space and time. Matthews is still getting used to being in the middle. He loves to react quickly and chase, but in the middle that is recipe for disaster.

Part of this is talent, the interior guys are not dominating players. But a lot of it is getting used to the scheme and knowing where their teammates are going to be. When to freelance and when to sit in a gap. It also doesn't help that the only guy in the backend who knows how to tackle is Ha-Ha.

So gap discipline is critical to them being able to improve run defense. And, as you alluded to, I saw a lot of guys who were well blocked by Bears o-line, and not many consistently winning their one on one battle in their gap. When is the last time you remember the defense consistently swarming to the ball? Scheme may be important, but so is the ability to whip the guy in front of you. Is anyone seeing much of that?

If you are a Capers hater or not; fine, get someone else in here. I only care about the success of the Packers, not whether he is the DC. But tell me how another DC will take the same guys who can't win a one on one battle consistently, can't take good angles to the play consistently, can't wrap up and tackle consistently, can't diagnose plays pre-snap consistently and turn them into a capable defense? Is it really all about the wrong scheme? I do agree with MM that scheme is not a crutch. The ultimate success or failure is Capers fault, but it's always the players who have to execute what is called. Is it too simplistic to ask, "hey, whatever adjustments you made in the Jets game when you were getting gashed, where were those adjustments today in the Bears game?"

[pbmax]

Part of the problem of gap control and tackling is that players are often out of position or coming from well away from the play to make a play. So they do swarm, but it leaves gaps as it happens. And, as you noted, not many are winning individual battlers (Daniels previously being a big exception), no one is clean to make a play. So everyone is one arming their gap.

So swarming to the ball while one arming the tacking leaves a lot of broken tackles and lots of space to operate. The Capers Packers D has always been aggressive to the ball to the point of hurting itself (minus the 2009 season in run D). They need to slow down, play the gap and put a body on the ball carrier. Once they master that, then you can try for strips, big hits or penetrating deep into the backfield.

Right now its not sound technique.

[Freak Out]

If this keeps up...which unfortunately it probably will...Capers need to be shown the door. There is talent on the defensive side of the ball but its not setup to succeed. Which could very well cost this team another shot at the SB this year.

[Carolina_Packer]

If this keeps up...which unfortunately it probably will...Capers need to be shown the door. There is talent on the defensive side of the ball but its not setup to succeed. Which could very well cost this team another shot at the SB this year.

Yeah Freak Out, I've had that thought for a while. I was surprised that Capers wasn't shown the door after last season. What was it that was showing MM that things were going to be different this year? So, now the response from MM might be that they are taking some time to get used to a different scheme. (Mostly) same players, now playing in a different wrinkle of 3-4. Similar results. What is the players culpability? How would another DC make them tackle better, take better angles to plays, diagnose better, not leave their gap responsibility better, get off blocks and win their one on one battles better? Don't get me wrong, Capers still needs to go. He's ultimately responsible. These same players, another DC...who knows?

[Rutnstrut]

TT, MM, and capers do not seem to care about tougher and more physical. In fact imo this defense looks to be getting softer and more pussy like.

[denverYooper]

31 brought it up a while back, but the Packers are built to pass and get after the passer. They rely on Rodgers and the passing game to pressure the opponent to keep up and start making mistakes. That's exactly what happened yesterday, and it's how the Packers want to do business. Ideally, sure, they'd love to be great running/stopping the run, but if they can only get to do one thing well on defense, it might as well be stopping the pass.

I know the D looks shitty against the run, but they're currently 6th in PRA (passer rating against) at 78.9 and have faced some decent passing offenses. The last few years, this has been ~100 and that has killed them more than anything. At least they're getting some pressure and some takeaways this year.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Just to add some fun to the conversation:

Packers defense has allowed 37 pts in the last 11 quarters. That's about 14 pts/game at that pace. Just sayin'.

This from a guy who still wants Capers fired.

[deake]

My question would be, why the different results between the Lion and Bear games? The Lions have a decent offense and yet our defense did well in that game. Everyone was looking for a shootout and it didn't happen, why? No one expected us to shut down the Lions but we did, why? To my untrained eye the Pack seemed to line up the same for both games so that would rule out the scheme.

[Carolina_Packer]

My question would be, why the different results between the Lion and Bear games? The Lions have a decent offense and yet our defense did well in that game. Everyone was looking for a shootout and it didn't happen, why? No one expected us to shut down the Lions but we did, why? To my untrained eye the Pack seemed to line up the same for both games so that would rule out the scheme.

A very good point. It's a game to game league I guess. It's like a hitter in baseball. If you take the same approach against all pitchers you face, you're probably not going to do well. You have to make adjustments in order to adapt and keep up.

My question was about the Jets game. They get gashed in the Jets game and then clearly figure something out and shut them down. Yesterday, they had no answer for the Bears run game.

Regarding what Denver said, it would make no sense to concede the run. How can you ever hope to have a pass rush when you are giving up 2nd or 3rd and short all the time? I hope they are looking at all options at this point to get that thing fixed. Otherwise, come playoffs time, should that happen, they would be ripe for a team to play them like the Giants did in 2011 where they can rush with 4 and drop 7.

[denverYooper]

A very good point. It's a game to game league I guess. It's like a hitter in baseball. If you take the same approach against all pitchers you face, you're probably not going to do well. You have to make adjustments in order to adapt and keep up.

My question was about the Jets game. They get gashed in the Jets game and then clearly figure something out and shut them down. Yesterday, they had no answer for the Bears run game.

Regarding what Denver said, it would make no sense to concede the run. How can you ever hope to have a pass rush when you are giving up 2nd or 3rd and short all the time? I hope they are looking at all options at this point to get that thing fixed. Otherwise, come playoffs time, should that happen, they would be ripe for a team to play them like the Giants did in 2011 where they can rush with 4 and drop 7.

They're not exactly conceding the run, but they're thinking pass first all day long. The offense stalled because of that front 4, but the Giants beat the pants off of the Packers through the air and made the Packers try to keep up.

[red]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

[Bretsky]

they actually felt this year's ilb core were just as bad as the safeties last year

[denverYooper]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

It's been excruciating watching teams chip away at the middle of the field, but the biggest problem in the great safety dearth between Collins and HHCD has been the atrocious play on deep passes. Early signs point to that being less of a problem this year. Actually, Waldo before he had a kid and checked out had a good theory about failure at all 3 levels up the middle. GB's back line looks like it's been solidified.

As for the LBs and DL.... well, yeah, those need some shoring up yet.

[3irty1]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

[wist43]

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Couldn't disagree more - it's scheme much more than talent.

You can't line up with 4 guys in the box and expect to stop the run - and that should be the end of that portion of the debate.

You can't line up with 6 guys in your "front seven", and expect to consistently stop the run.

You can't always play nickel against 3 wides - especially when the down distance is 3rd or 4th and short. All the OC need do is throw 3 wides out there, and he knows Capers will abandon the middle of the field. Result?? Easy 1st down.

You can't play man 24/7 - especially underneath. It makes it far to easy for OC's to create huge voids underneath and in the middle. Matchup zones have evolved tremendously in the past decade or so... the Packers haven't noticed, but much of the rest of the league manages.

Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

Yes, we lost talent - and there is to be expected a dropoff and transition. But what Capers has done has made everything worse. He has in no way tailored a scheme and gameplans according to the talent TT has given him. TT brought in a lot of good DL talent, and Capers proceeded to park those guys on the bench.

TT did nothing to improve our ILB situation, yet Capers schemed to ensure that those guys were on the field 24/7 - and the focal point of the defense.

Capers turned a difficult situation into a disaster - yes, we have less talent than the SB year, but Capers has made everything worse - much worse.

The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

Rule changes have opened up the middle a bit more. What with "hitting a defenseless player", and the chuck rule... but that does not account for Green Bay's completely abandoning the middle of the field.

The rules do not say, "... the offensive player must be uncovered, and be allowed to make the catch".

The mess in the secondary seems to be somewhat less of a mess - but it is still a mess. That's coaching.

If a player doesn't know where he is supposed to be?? That's coaching.

As often as not, our defense looks like the keystone cops... some of the mess seems to have been cleaned up - but there is no doubt that the Packers are fielding one of the worst defenses in the league - and 95% of what is wrong can be summed up in one word - dunderdummy.

[3irty1]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

[wist43]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??