WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF DOM CAPERS

[Patler]

Not sure I buy into all of that completely Patler.

What our defense does not have is Aaron Rodgers; he really masks weaknesses everywhere..being the best qb in the nfl at the most important position.

But I really think the offense parts around Rodgers are also stronger, personnel wise, than the defensive parts around Clay. I think Ted has done a better job filling out the offensive talent than on defense.

I won't dispute that Rodgers makes a lot of difference, BUT a QB alone is limited. I'm not convinced that the offense has had all that much more talent top to bottom than the defense has had. They've just performed better as a unit. MM has maximized the effectiveness of Rodgers and Favre before him even when they had no running game, even when the depth at WR was/is limited due to injuries and roster turnover, even when they have had little at TE because Finley was out, and even when the O-line struggled.

Has Capers maximized the effectiveness of Matthews? Raji? Anyone other than Woodson in 2010? Have the defensive players been that much worse and/or more limited than Newhouse, Saturday, EDS (who I think was a lot worse than his reputation), Kuhn, Quarless, Alex Green, Crabtree, DJ Williams, Boykin, Benson, Barclay and a host of others that the offense has had to rely on at times?

The offense probably has been a somewhat more talented than the defense, but so much so to justify the difference of the offense being one of the best in the league, and the defense one of the worst? I don't think so.

[mraynrand]

I won't dispute that Rodgers makes a lot of difference, BUT a QB alone is limited. I'm not convinced that the offense has had all that much more talent top to bottom than the defense has had. They've just performed better as a unit. MM has maximized the effectiveness of Rodgers and Favre before him even when they had no running game, even when the depth at WR was/is limited due to injuries and roster turnover, even when they have had little at TE because Finley was out, and even when the O-line struggled.

Has Capers maximized the effectiveness of Matthews? Raji? Anyone other than Woodson in 2010? Have the defensive players been that much worse and/or more limited than Newhouse, Saturday, EDS (who I think was a lot worse than his reputation), Kuhn, Quarless, Alex Green, Crabtree, DJ Williams, Boykin, Benson, Barclay and a host of others that the offense has had to rely on at times?

The offense probably has been a somewhat more talented than the defense, but so much so to justify the difference of the offense being one of the best in the league, and the defense one of the worst? I don't think so.

Good post. But the difference is the QB. Not many defensive players can have the kind of impact of a QB who is one of the top three QBs in the league.

Capers is decent, not great, and like so many coaches, looks so much better with great experienced talent. Can't deny that Packer struck gold in 2010 with Collins, Woodson, Matthews, Williams, and Raji all playing at a high level, plus guys like Pickett, Jenkins, Shields, and Bishop all playing well down the stretch. 2014 could see the same thing if Daniels, Peppers, Matthews, Burnett, and Shields could play like pro bowlers and others could play well consistently down the stretch. It has to start gelling pretty damn soon though...

[woodbuck27]

Good post. But the difference is the QB. Not many defensive players can have the kind of impact of a QB who is one of the top three QBs in the league.

Capers is decent, not great, and like so many coaches, looks so much better with great experienced talent. Can't deny that Packer struck gold in 2010 with Collins, Woodson, Matthews, Williams, and Raji all playing at a high level, plus guys like Pickett, Jenkins, Shields, and Bishop all playing well down the stretch. 2014 could see the same thing if Daniels, Peppers, Matthews, Burnett, and Shields could play like pro bowlers and others could play well consistently down the stretch. It has to start gelling pretty damn soon though...

" It has to start gelling pretty damn soon though..." m

Sometime like ...TODAY Vs the New England Patriots ! It doesn't get much better (more HUGE) than what we hope to see today.

GO PACKERS !

[pbmax]

The offense probably has been a somewhat more talented than the defense, but so much so to justify the difference of the offense being one of the best in the league, and the defense one of the worst? I don't think so.

This is the question I keep coming back to but I get to the opposite conclusion (which is why I don't favor summarily firing him).

Since 2010, rank of Defense on Points Allowed
2011 - 19th
2012 - 11th
2013 - 24th
2014 - 15th

OK, ranks and yearly totals leave a lot of things out, so how about more advanced metrics?

Football Outsiders
2011 - 25th
2012 - 8th
2013 - 31st
2014 - 12th

Just for comparison's sake, Bob Sanders was fired after finishing 22nd in PA and 12th at Football Outsiders. There is a lot of bend but don't break in Capers D, especially the two worst years. Yardage ranks are lower than points allowed.

[3irty1]

I won't dispute that Rodgers makes a lot of difference, BUT a QB alone is limited. I'm not convinced that the offense has had all that much more talent top to bottom than the defense has had. They've just performed better as a unit. MM has maximized the effectiveness of Rodgers and Favre before him even when they had no running game, even when the depth at WR was/is limited due to injuries and roster turnover, even when they have had little at TE because Finley was out, and even when the O-line struggled.

Has Capers maximized the effectiveness of Matthews? Raji? Anyone other than Woodson in 2010? Have the defensive players been that much worse and/or more limited than Newhouse, Saturday, EDS (who I think was a lot worse than his reputation), Kuhn, Quarless, Alex Green, Crabtree, DJ Williams, Boykin, Benson, Barclay and a host of others that the offense has had to rely on at times?

The offense probably has been a somewhat more talented than the defense, but so much so to justify the difference of the offense being one of the best in the league, and the defense one of the worst? I don't think so.

I don't agree with this. If anything Dom relies too much on getting the most out of one or two superstars. He's produced 3 DPOY which is way more than his fair share plus had Clay as a finalist in 2010. The issues seem come when the guy you built your system around goes down.

Also its not fair to compare the offense and defense that way. By nature of offense you're imposing your will and know what's coming which makes it way easier to hide a weak player. Defense is always reacting so a weak link on defense is a much bigger liability.

I think Dom is better than his defense's rankings the last few years and worse than his league reputation as a genius innovator.

[pbmax]

Thompson did find two guys who sort of fit the Rodgers bill: Collins and Woodson.

Matthews, for all the love and hype, just is not a dominant enough pass rusher to single-handedly change an offense. Maybe you need 2-3 of them on D rather than just the one at QB for Offense.

[Joemailman]

.

[Bossman641]

I voted average and my reasoning is as follows. When is the last time we had a truly dominant DL? Raji or Jenkins during the SB run? Even the years that we've had a decent DL it's always been a mix of run pluggers (Jolly/Jenkins) and pass rushers (Daniels). Not enough balanced/2 way players. I don't even need to discuss the LB situation. It's been a revolving door opposite CM3 and the ILB's need a serious upgrade.

[Smidgeon]

Maybe it was injuries forcing Dom's hand, but he hasn't been this creative (2014) since 2010 when he ran the Woodson 2-4 all year. And it's been effective.

We've basically been harping on him for the 2011, 2012, and 2013 defensive failings. But don't those coincide with waaay too many injuries? HHCD may have finally filled Collins' spot (not the same skill, but far from an embarrassment), and that needed filling. Plus Hyde, Hayward, Daniels, etc.

[pbmax]

Health is a big factor here and it was last year in reverse fashion. Only Perry and maybe Hawk were limited yesterday.

[mraynrand]

Health is a big factor here

ding! winner.

[wist43]

So dunderdummy has put together 2 decent games in the last 4... makes me wonder what his motivation is - such as, are TT and MM holding his family hostage and actually forcing him to do his job??

Doing his job for the sake of doing his job doesn't make sense, b/c afterall - he is dunderdummy. Have to assume he's got a gun to his head in some way

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Haven't looked at the game yet though... saw some of the 4th quarter - I turned it on, and the first 5 plays I saw were NE ramming it down our throats for 50+ yds and a TD, lol...

My brother sent me a text about 1/2 way thru the 2nd quarter and said, "... here comes the 2-4, gonna get ugly now"; and then 3 minutes later, he texted, "... NE TD".

Still, the stats look good, and they kept the score down... Neal's sack near the end saved the day - great play by Neal. I'll look at the game tomorrow.

[Zool]

So dunderdummy has put together 2 decent games in the last 4... makes me wonder what his motivation is - such as, are TT and MM holding his family hostage and actually forcing him to do his job??

Doing his job for the sake of doing his job doesn't make sense, b/c afterall - he is dunderdummy. Have to assume he's got a gun to his head in some way

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Haven't looked at the game yet though... saw some of the 4th quarter - I turned it on, and the first 5 plays I saw were NE ramming it down our throats for 50+ yds and a TD, lol...

My brother sent me a text about 1/2 way thru the 2nd quarter and said, "... here comes the 2-4, gonna get ugly now"; and then 3 minutes later, he texted, "... NE TD".

Still, the stats look good, and they kept the score down... Neal's sack near the end saved the day - great play by Neal. I'll look at the game tomorrow.

Packers getting 3 instead of 7, and Brady fitting the ball into some tight places kept the game close. He made some fantastic throws. When the Packers were across the 50, Pats D got the Packers in 3rd and long often. Fun game to watch.

[Bretsky]

So dunderdummy has put together 2 decent games in the last 4... makes me wonder what his motivation is - such as, are TT and MM holding his family hostage and actually forcing him to do his job??

Doing his job for the sake of doing his job doesn't make sense, b/c afterall - he is dunderdummy. Have to assume he's got a gun to his head in some way

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Haven't looked at the game yet though... saw some of the 4th quarter - I turned it on, and the first 5 plays I saw were NE ramming it down our throats for 50+ yds and a TD, lol...

My brother sent me a text about 1/2 way thru the 2nd quarter and said, "... here comes the 2-4, gonna get ugly now"; and then 3 minutes later, he texted, "... NE TD".

Still, the stats look good, and they kept the score down... Neal's sack near the end saved the day - great play by Neal. I'll look at the game tomorrow.

I came in here thinking even flippin wist has to give him credit for this game. Dom was Domgenius against NE and from what I can see he didn't bracket coverage Gronk at all...and no Gronk didn't get an infinite number of TD's. You can't lose...when the D sux it's all on Dom and when they are great it's the players.

GB has been a better defense since Clay moved to ILB and Dom no longer looks crippled by the pathetic safety play he's had the past few years. This is the first year in a while he has a chance.

[wist43]

I came in here thinking even flippin wist has to give him credit for this game. Dom was Domgenius against NE and from what I can see he didn't bracket coverage Gronk at all...and no Gronk didn't get an infinite number of TD's. You can't lose...when the D sux it's all on Dom and when they are great it's the players.

GB has been a better defense since Clay moved to ILB and Dom no longer looks crippled by the pathetic safety play he's had the past few years. This is the first year in a while he has a chance.

I give credit to dunderdummy for doing what he should have been doing for at least the 3+ years - that doesn't buy him a pass for all of the misery he is responsible for visiting upon us in that time.

As I've said for a few years now - I like the players, and think we can have at least an effective defense if they are used properly. Obviously we have not had an effective defense for the last 3+ years - and since it seems obvious to me we have a decent amount of talent, doesn't it stand to reason that our failings then would have to be dunderdummy's doing??

He is using the players the way I've stated they needed to be used, and we are realizing some success. He may not have bracketed Gronk (I don't know, I'll have to look at the game - plan to watch it with my brother tomorrow), but he's played the front 6/7 the way I've been calling for, and the results have been much, much better.

To me it's common sense - if you're more talented at DL than you are LB; and if your greatest weakness on defense is at ILB - why in heavens name would anyone design a defense to ensure that those weaknesses are on the field full-time, while the more talented players languish on the sideline?? To me, it was obvious that they needed to go to the 3-3 a long time ago.

[Bretsky]

I give credit to dunderdummy for doing what he should have been doing for at least the 3+ years - that doesn't buy him a pass for all of the misery he is responsible for visiting upon us in that time.

As I've said for a few years now - I like the players, and think we can have at least an effective defense if they are used properly. Obviously we have not had an effective defense for the last 3+ years - and since it seems obvious to me we have a decent amount of talent, doesn't it stand to reason that our failings then would have to be dunderdummy's doing??

He is using the players the way I've stated they needed to be used, and we are realizing some success. .

WHO have our safeties been and our ILB's been the three years prior to this one
To blankly say we have the talent while ignoring the improvements TT has given us this year does not seem at all fair
We still have zero's at ILB....but no Dom has more pass rushers, a real safety, and the flexibility to move Clay inside

[wist43]

WHO have our safeties been and our ILB's been the three years prior to this one
To blankly say we have the talent while ignoring the improvements TT has given us this year does not seem at all fair
We still have zero's at ILB....but no Dom has more pass rushers, a real safety, and the flexibility to move Clay inside

HaHa cleaned up Safety - that still would have been an issue to some extent the past few years... that is largely on TT; but dunderdummy surely could have made less of a mess of it.

Our front seven has been good talent wise for a few years now - the problem has been in how dunderdummy used them. The Jumbo 2-4 was a disaster, and the fact that he ran the 2-4 75% of the time has been the largest issue our defense has faced in the previous 3 years.

It has only been this year when MM supposedly got involved in the offseason that dunderdummy has been running 3-4 and 3-3, and predictably the results have been much better.

That said, given the talent he had available to him the last few years he could have used them to much better effect, but he insisted on run the 2-4 and misusing players. He had Perry at LB, when Perry was clearly a fish out of water out there; he ran the 2-4 in base situations all the time; he gameplanned to have Brad Jones and Hawk on the field 24/7, when he could have been mixing his fronts with players like Raji, Neal, Perry, Jolly, Pickett, Daniels, et al... instead of establishing a solid rotation based on situation, he played the 2-4 and teams not only ran over us, they passed thru us like swiss cheese.

And those facts are before anyone begins to look at the embarrassing playoff losses in which our defense was embarrassed multiple times. All of that is on Capers.

[Fritz]

I give credit to dunderdummy for doing what he should have been doing for at least the 3+ years - that doesn't buy him a pass for all of the misery he is responsible for visiting upon us in that time.

As I've said for a few years now - I like the players, and think we can have at least an effective defense if they are used properly. Obviously we have not had an effective defense for the last 3+ years - and since it seems obvious to me we have a decent amount of talent, doesn't it stand to reason that our failings then would have to be dunderdummy's doing??

He is using the players the way I've stated they needed to be used, and we are realizing some success. He may not have bracketed Gronk (I don't know, I'll have to look at the game - plan to watch it with my brother tomorrow), but he's played the front 6/7 the way I've been calling for, and the results have been much, much better.

To me it's common sense - if you're more talented at DL than you are LB; and if your greatest weakness on defense is at ILB - why in heavens name would anyone design a defense to ensure that those weaknesses are on the field full-time, while the more talented players languish on the sideline?? To me, it was obvious that they needed to go to the 3-3 a long time ago.

I think your original argument was that having linebackers lining up on the line and counting them as defensive lineman was wrong because they were too light and small to do the job, and thus that alignment was not really a 3-3 or 3-4.

You've clearly backtracked from that line, so that now, when the Packer defense, piloted by Capers, gives up only 21 to the Patriots (contrary to your predictions), you claim that Capers is doing what you said he should, and that's why they played well.

You are a piece of work, dude.

[wist43]

I think your original argument was that having linebackers lining up on the line and counting them as defensive lineman was wrong because they were too light and small to do the job, and thus that alignment was not really a 3-3 or 3-4.

You've clearly backtracked from that line, so that now, when the Packer defense, piloted by Capers, gives up only 21 to the Patriots (contrary to your predictions), you claim that Capers is doing what you said he should, and that's why they played well.

You are a piece of work, dude.

Oy vey, lol...

I think you guys read every 3rd word I write, and fill the inbetweens with your own prerecordings...

I've never deviated in my contention of how these personnel should be used. Yes, the way Dom ran his 2-4, both the jumbo and the pass rush version was severely flawed, and I've pointed out why on both counts.

I've also laid out the case for why the 3-3 is vastly superior, given our personnel, and that does involve having more size and pass rush on the field simultaneously. For the longest time I've wanted to have Perry inserted as a down linemen b/c 1) he is bigger than Brad Jones, 2) I wanted him as a down linemen, not a LB b/c he wasn't natural at LB, and he's stated all along he wanted to play DL, 3) played inside the T's he gives us better gap control, and thus we are better equipped to handle the run, should the opponent decide to run it, and 4) he provided much more pass rush potential than anything that could be generated out of dunderdummy's Jumbo.

The next thing I wanted done was to have Neal at either OLB or ILB. Since I think Neal is a very good outside rusher, my preference was to have him on the outside, and use Matthews as a rover. Before we signed Peppers we would have necessarily had to play either Brad Jones, Hawk, or Lattimore somewhere, but now with Peppers - and given our personnel, it is entirely doable to craft nickel alignments that don't have either Brad Jones or Hawk on the field at all - and of course we are much the better for it.

What you are referrencing with the LB's rushing from the 2-4 is that I don't accept the argument that that alignment is in effect a 4-2 simply b/c the 2 OLB's always rush. I don't like that alignment b/c 1) it is very static and predictable, thus easy to block, 2) it ensures that Brad Jones and Hawk remain on the field, 3) it ensures that more talented players like Perry, Neal, and D. Jones are left standing on the sidelines, 4) there are fewer downlinemen firing off and taking on offensive linemen with leverage, and 5) it limits pass rush/blitz options.

The 3-3 is the cure all for all those things - and now that dunderdummy is actually running much more 3-3 and 3-4, our defense is starting to look like a legitimate NFL defense. It only took dunderdummy how many years to come around to this realization??

[ThunderDan]

I think your original argument was that having linebackers lining up on the line and counting them as defensive lineman was wrong because they were too light and small to do the job, and thus that alignment was not really a 3-3 or 3-4.

You've clearly backtracked from that line, so that now, when the Packer defense, piloted by Capers, gives up only 21 to the Patriots (contrary to your predictions), you claim that Capers is doing what you said he should, and that's why they played well.

You are a piece of work, dude.

He wouldn't even give me Peppers as OLB in the 2-4 playing on the line as a DE. Now he must have counted him as a down lineman I think for this week's game.