I would have had him as mid-round pick - but for the style of play I prefer, I wouldn't have even had him on my draft board.Originally Posted by pbmax
I simply do not like, weak tackling, timid football players - and that pretty much sums up Randall. Of course for TT and Capers, those traits are at the top of their list apparently - it is why every year we have "clean up" that tackling thingy
wist
Vince posted this in the Randall draft thread... I'll repost all of them - the Oregon State game is probably the worst, and he had a pick in that game.
wist
Randall looks like he will be a more willing and better tackler than TW was for most of his career, especially the last few seasons. TW was "good enough" for a CB, so I don't see it as a problem for Randall.
I am much more concerned about whether Randall's cover skills will be good enough to play corner.
Williams was an excellent cover corner - so you can live with his sheepish tackling. The jury is very much out on Randall and his coverage skills - he's a projection for that; if he is average in coverage, and substandard as tackler and back-end defender in general - then we wasted a 1st round pick.
If he proves to be TW clone - I'd take that in a heartbeat, but I surely haven't seen anything that would indicate he has that kind speed and coverage ability.
wist
I haven't seen anything to suggest Randall is sheepish about tackling, which is why I think he should be a better tackler than TW. However, poor tackling isn't less of a liability if he is better in coverage. It is what it is regardless of coverage skills. Ultimately, his playing time will be determined by his coverage skills, not his tackling ability, assuming, of course he doesn't turn the other way and run away form ball carriers.
When I read the things about Damarious Randall, after the pick, I was excited. The guy is fast, explosive, fluid, aggressive, best cover skills at the safety position (so it doesn't sound like a total reach for the Packers to think he can play corner,) excellent ball skills, student of the game, instinctive, tackles well enough, but not a great tackler.....
Wist has done an excellent job mentioning and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating his one weakness. And lets remember, there are a handful of excellent tackling corners in the NFL, but for the most part, cornerbacks are your least effective tacklers in the back 7. Same way offensive lineman are your least elusive players on the offensive side of the ball.
Anyone judging Damarious Randall with too much weight tilted toward Wist's assertion that he's a terrible tackler and a waste of a pick should be pleasantly surprised. If you sift through the information available, all indications are that this guy is a football player. He does everything well from his position, except tackling, which all I've read is that he's a below average tackling safety, which suggests he's an average tackler at CB.
When I look at players coming out of college into the NFL, I tend to weigh out a few things. 1st, how well do they play their position. If an OL is talked about as an excellent, consistent blocker, I tend to expect more from that player. If a player is excellent at catching the football, running routes, being on the same page as his QB and running after the catch, I tend to expect more from him as a WR. Bahktiari was one of those guys, you read about him just being a fantastic blocker. I thought, shit, this guy is really good at blocking. We need that. Well, in the spirit of looking at how well players play football, that's what we have here. We have a defensive back who can really play. I like players who play football really well, so I like Damarious Randall's chances. And then I look at athletic ability. If you have an excellent football player who is also an excellent athlete, I'm even more excited. Randall is also an excellent athlete. As I read into him, I became even more excited with his combination of skill and athleticism. The last thing I tend to read into is character/work ethic/leadership, etc. . . . Randall is also a really good guy. He works his butt off, wants to be good and loves playing.
When I sift through the mountains of information available during and after NFL drafts, the way I view players has evolved over the years. There just isn't enough information on some players and you get surprises all of the time. But once in a while there is a guy who's sort of shown it all and I feel pretty confident they'll be good in the NFL. Bahktiari, Sitton, Davante Adams and now Damarious Randall are examples of this kind of draft prospect.
I'll bet this guy rips it the fuck up. All signs point to Damarious Randall being a ball-hawking super-athlete from the corner position. He doesn't tackle as well as some safeties, but tackles as well as most corners. My money is on this guy shocking the shit out of a lot of people, Wist being at the top of that list.
Formerly known as JustinHarrell.
Sweet post and your username makes it even sweeter. Repped.
Shields would shy away from tackling a stack of pillows. Are there really very many CBs starting in the NFL who most would consider strong tacklers? I ask because I have no idea.
HOFer
Ability to play the ball in the air is far and away the trait you choose to covet for any DB in the modern NFL. Tackling is not something that would be a major red flag, and I don't see anything on the film that suggests he couldn't learn how to become a better tackler. He's from the Pac 10 for crying out loud...what do you expect? They aren't even aware that defense exists...they think the 11 guys out there when the other team has the ball is the special teams.
It's such a GOOD feeling...13 TIME WORLD CHAMPIONS!!
Great post, Justin. Well thought out and articulated. Odd for the Internet ��
You guys think every Packer pick is destined for the HOF - most of you guys are drunk on Green and Gold Kool-Aid, and not sober enough to take a critical look at players.
If Randall makes it as a corner, it will be b/c of his intangibles, i.e. instincts and work ethic. In terms of ability, he's average at best, with some glaring weaknesses. While he is a terrible tackler, and does take some bad angles, his backpedal and hips are just as much of a concern.
The guy simply did not play cornerback - so everything about him is a projection. Very risky 1st round pick for those reasons.
wist
And? You choose to try and analyze a player's weaknesses. Others like to look for positives in players.
Is either one wrong?
If a guy is in a wheelchair, but has great hands - does the negative of his not being able to run outweigh his great hands??
Just depends - who was that LB about 10 years back, who had HOF physical ability, but couldn't think his way out of a parking lot?? Torrence Marshall?? 3rd round pick, and everyone could see the physical ability, but the negative was that he was dumb as a rock - another Special Teamer.
wist
Guy looks average at best in college. Rarely gets a start. Barely gets drafted. Does nothing outstanding on tape. Measurable's are all average. Becomes Tom Brady. Let people be happy and upbeat for fucks sake.If a guy is in a wheelchair, but has great hands - does the negative of his not being able to run outweigh his great hands??
Just depends - who was that LB about 10 years back, who had HOF physical ability, but couldn't think his way out of a parking lot?? Torrence Marshall?? 3rd round pick, and everyone could see the physical ability, but the negative was that he was dumb as a rock - another Special Teamer.
I see you've masterfully left yourself room for a backpedal. Maybe you should coach up Randall.
70% of the Earth is covered by water. The rest is covered by Al Harris.
lol... a lot of mid-late round picks make it. Shields and Williams were both undrafted, so obviously they didn't catch the scouts eye for whatever reason. Pat Lee was a 2nd round pick, and couldn't play anything but Special Teams.
For these things, beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. Me? I don't like soft players - Randall looks like a very soft player, with a few other negatives. He has positives too - I've mentioned his positives. If he were a mid-round pick I wouldn't be bitching, but he was a 1st round pick.
wist
Point #1: ludicrous.
Point #2: Not really. From my perspective, TT has a proven successful track record and I have learned not to rush to judgement. I Don't think I'm drinking Kool aid by trusting professionals who know their business.
Point #3: probably a bunch of us.
But aren't you very much the opposite? You basically dislike almost everyone the Packers pick. The year Favre left, you assured us that Aaron Rodgers would never be good enough to carry the team or lead them to the Super Bowl. The only draft picks I can recall you liking were Brohm (mostly because you thought so little of Rodgers, not that you were so high on Brohm) and Abdul Hodge, who you said made the 2006 draft a success. You may have liked others, but I sure don't recall any.
I like everyone the Packers pick, not because I think they are headed to the HOF, but because they each have some attribute or unique characteristic that cause them to be drafted. A 300 pound lineman that was the gunner on his punt team, the small college player who has exceptional size for a wide receiver and is blazingly fast, the player who has kept a detailed notebook from every team practice he has participated in because ultimately he wants to coach. The running back who has ambitions of being the mayor of Los Angeles, the lineman who toiled anonymously yet successfully on teams that were not very good, the undisciplined quarterback with a rocket arm, the DB who played mostly basketball or baseball or wide receiver or quarterback but showed promise in limited exposure on defense. I know most will have very brief professional careers, even fewer will make an impact. But they all are interesting to follow, to see which will be a BJ Coleman, which an Alan Barbre, which a Sam Shields and once in a great while, a Willie Wood.
I don't dislike most Packer picks - some I liked a lot, but didn't think they'd be a good fit, and as often as not, that has proven to be true.
I like the Raji pick a lot - he was fine until they started misusing him. Perry? Thought he never belonged at OLB, and he said he didn't want to play OLB; other guys that I've liked, that I wanted the Packers to draft, but they didn't, went to other teams and performed very well.
Still others - I didn't like the Greg Jennings pick initially, but after seeing him run routes live in minicamp I knew right then that he would be a player; I immediately reversed course and endorsed Jennings; and so it goes...
One of the reasons I'm more negative on some of our players though is b/c of the style of play the Packers prefer, i.e. finesse. The OL is finesse, and our DB's tend to be finesse players. Add to that the fact that Capers undermans his defensive fronts, and you have a recipe for getting run over - which to me, there is no excuse for. If you can't stop the run, you're going to struggle mightily on defense - and of course we haven't been able to stop the run, and we've struggled for years on defense.
Still, we have a good team - we're close, we could very well win the SB this year; but it is going to depend on rookie corners, and MM and Capers not coaching scared.
We'll see.
wist
Your criticisms of Peri were spot on, but some of the most critical things you said about Randall (backpedal, hips) are different than what some of the scouts have said http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packe...302087691.html
The biggest issues besides so-so tackling are that he doesn't know the position as well as you would expect from a 1st rounder (onus on coaches here), and that he is short, especially given who he may be up against. Also since Hayward is not a sure thing, it would have been nice to pick up a couple of guys with a higher chance of being decent, instead of hit-or-miss types. At this point I don't love or hate these two picks, and hopefully, starting next week, the needle will start pushing toward love 'em.
I don't see the OL as finesse, they have just started every season incompetently shitty, which could be mistaken for finesse. Defense is geared to stopping the pass first, and generating turn overs, which makes it more finesse. No team is good enough to win if the pass is shut down, just ask the Vikings. The game and the rule changes are pushing the game this way. Even so-so tackling by diving for legs fits in with this because those tackles are less likely to lead to concussions and suspensions.
Fire Murphy, Gute, MLF, Barry, Senavich, etc!
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