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Thread: WR Routes

  1. #61
    Senior Rat HOFer Maxie the Taxi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beveaux1 View Post
    No. What I'm saying is the loss of Nelson, Montgomery, Adams (five games), Quarless, Lacy (for whatever reason for 8 games), even Abredaris, has hindered the offense and that it won't look like last years offense. This game was very winnable. We turned the ball over twice leading to 7 points and taking at least 3 away from us. We failed to score from the 8 in four tries at the end of the game. I'm a fan and I want them to be the same as last year, but they aren't. This team reminds me of the Schroeder years with Favre. We had so many injuries, we played a punt returner as a starting receiver and never got any YAC. I believe we still won 10 games, but every one was a struggle. Other parts of the team will have to pick up the offense for us to win and we probably won't have many blowout victories.
    I hear what you're saying, and I understand injuries. However, what you're saying assumes that the offense would be fixed if the people we lost to injuries come back. I would agree with that in the case of Nelson, but that's as far as it goes. Adams is back. Quarless coming back won't be the answer to anything. Montgomery and Abby are basically rookies who, you said yourself, can't really be counted on to produce untilk they get more experience. Even Lacy coming back doesn't seem to be himself. So really to me it comes down to either lack of real talent or our offensive schemes being dependent on one man (Nelson), a mediocre TE (Quarless) and untested rooks (Monty and Abby).

    That's not a lot to look forward to.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxie the Taxi View Post
    I hear what you're saying, and I understand injuries. However, what you're saying assumes that the offense would be fixed if the people we lost to injuries come back. I would agree with that in the case of Nelson, but that's as far as it goes. Adams is back. Quarless coming back won't be the answer to anything. Montgomery and Abby are basically rookies who, you said yourself, can't really be counted on to produce untilk they get more experience. Even Lacy coming back doesn't seem to be himself. So really to me it comes down to either lack of real talent or our offensive schemes being dependent on one man (Nelson), a mediocre TE (Quarless) and untested rooks (Monty and Abby).

    That's not a lot to look forward to.
    I disagree a bit with Monty, he is shifty enough that he is a nightmare in man on man matches short and he threatens with YAC if not game breaking ability. He did earlier this year, what Cobb did until they devoted the best CB to him.

    He is a rookie, so they probably cannot run the offense through him, but I think he helps more than Abby or Adams immediately.
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  3. #63
    Rodgers liked Adams because he is as big as Nelson and so man coverage has a whale of a time getting hands on him to stop or redirect. I assume, though have no proof other than playing time, that he is better at routes and being where he is supposed to be when he is supposed to be there than Janis. That INT last night is what happens when you aren't. Rodgers doesn't complete a lot of slants to Cobb for a reason. Adams is big enough to run those, absorb contact and make the catch.

    It would be good for his to start. He just isn't doing that this year with the injury, rehab and catching up to speed.

    The other two players who should be helping mitigate the loss of Nelson are Monty, who was doing just that by abusing man coverage and Magical Abby, who was just recovering from last year's injury.

    Someone said Ted should have gotten a vet when Nelson was injured. I am pretty sure he did that and that vet shows one of the two reasons you don't do that. He hasn't got a ton left in the tank. The other problem is likelihood of injury, which the younger players have taken care of nicely.

    Monty getting re-hurt is horrible timing and might have been the most costly mistake this year. If they were pushing it by practicing early, it might cost their offense four games of ineptitude.

    Someone else said Cobb is known for his hands and routes. He might be known for his hands, but he is also known for his drops. And Cobb's best routes are on broken plays.

    But the culprit most easily fixed is this divide over the playbook offense and Rodger's offense that everyone was talking about in the offseason. When you have to start youngsters, that isn't helping. At this point, there aren't any youngsters left to worry about. But Monty will be back at some point I hope.

    The current version of the no huddle also has to go. I think this is the loss that will compel M3 to change up the offense, junk the offseason plan and go back to basics of design. As someone else said, they have fixed the run game to some degree. Time for the same work on the passing game.
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  4. #64
    Captain Rat HOFer Smidgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beveaux1 View Post
    The Packers usual formation calls for 2 outside receivers that I'll call #1 and #2, and a slot receiver that I'll call #3. Last year's primary receivers were #1 Nelson, #2 Adams, and #3 Cobb. Adams replaced Boykin who had replaced Jones who left as a free agent. The outside receivers learn the option routes in McCarthy's version of the west coast based upon defensive scheme (man, zone, 2 deep coverage, blitz packages, etc) as well as the technique of the DB (inside position, outside position, trail, etc). Based upon what we've seen for the past 24 years of this offense, it takes around 3 years for an outside receiver to contribute heavily in this offense. Slot receivers are a little different. They appear to do less route running and a little bit more free form running. At least with Cobb, it took until his 2nd year to have an impact on the offense. A receiver with very little big college experience takes longer to develop. Driver took more than 4 years to develop. I suspect that Janis falls into that category. The injury to Nelson was extremely significant. McCarthy and Rodgers expected Adams to move into the #1 position. They acquired Jones to take the #2 position, with Cobb at #3.

    Rodgers talked at length before the season about what a big leap Adams had made and expected great success with him. Unfortunately, early in the season, Adams went down with an ankle, and McCarthy had to shift on the fly. He moved Cobb to #1, Jones at #2, and pushed the development of Montgomery at #3. Defenses doubled Cobb, left one defender on Jones, and a #3 CB or a LB on Montgomery. Jones had some success and we started to see Montgomery developing as a short threat. Adams came back, but at the same time Montgomery went down with an ankle. I feel like the plan would have been to use Montgomery and Cobb as slots and reduce playing time for R Rodgers. Adams took a couple of games to get back into the flow and Cobb started seeing doubles as a slot receiver. That was the start of our offensive misery.

    I believe they game planned in the Detroit game to target Adams against a relatively week secondary. The purpose was to establish Adams as a genuine #1. In subsequent games, Adams would receive some doubles and Cobb would be able to revert to his role from last year. That plan backfired as Adams suffered drops, no YAC, and an inability to separate from a lone defender, as well as some mis-run routes due to not being on the same page as Rodgers. I believe Rodgers all but called him by saying more time should be spent during the week on preparation and being professional. I forgot to add that Abredaris was called to duty to replace Montgomery in one game in order to test the 2 slot receiver concept, but his fragility came back to stop that experiment even though we had some success.

    I'm going to stop short of calling Adams a bust. He's in his 2nd year, in a crash course due to injury, in a program that usually takes 3 years of preparation. Maybe, if Montgomery or Abredaris comes back, we can try the 2 slot receiver look, and find some success. Short of that, I believe this year will be a real struggle on offense.
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  5. #65
    I'm not buying that the receivers and the execution are the only issue with this team. Many teams end up in similar situations as the Packers and they adjust accordingly. The game plan and the play-calling share at least as much blame as the players. The Patriots seem to be losing a WR or RB every week and they find a way to integrate new players and schemes into their offense. MM is either unwilling or unable to do the same, and Clements follows suit. I've seen the same game plan and formations trotted out every week with miserable results.

  6. #66
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Janis is the game
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  7. #67
    Drowned Rat HOFer denverYooper's Avatar
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    I keep hearing how the Patriots keep rolling but the Patriots offense has struggled more and more as they've lost guys. Their overall numbers are mostly inflated due to some early season blowouts. They are not just plugging Schmoes in and churning out the same offensive production. They are still winning because of very good defense and special teams combined with an offense that can do just enough.

    The Patriots had a real tough time at home against Buffalo. Why? Because Buffalo has a strong, aggressive defense. If Buffalo had any kind of offense, they would have won.

    The Patriots are going to be matching up against a strong defense on the road again this week. It will be an interesting game. The Patriots are in good position to win but it will be more because of their defense, not their offense. If Brady gets hit 15 more times this week he'll start to look a little skittish too. Denver fans are feeling doomed but I think the Broncos have a pretty legitimate shot to win this week because of their defense.

    Let's not pretend the Patriots are just running some outstanding offense these days. Combined with their very strong defense/STs it is enough to win, but that is it. If Gronk went down, the Patriots offense would probably drop down into Packer-level funk.
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  8. #68
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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  9. #69
    Senior Rat HOFer beveaux1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    Rodgers liked Adams because he is as big as Nelson and so man coverage has a whale of a time getting hands on him to stop or redirect. I assume, though have no proof other than playing time, that he is better at routes and being where he is supposed to be when he is supposed to be there than Janis. That INT last night is what happens when you aren't. Rodgers doesn't complete a lot of slants to Cobb for a reason. Adams is big enough to run those, absorb contact and make the catch.

    It would be good for his to start. He just isn't doing that this year with the injury, rehab and catching up to speed.

    The other two players who should be helping mitigate the loss of Nelson are Monty, who was doing just that by abusing man coverage and Magical Abby, who was just recovering from last year's injury.

    Someone said Ted should have gotten a vet when Nelson was injured. I am pretty sure he did that and that vet shows one of the two reasons you don't do that. He hasn't got a ton left in the tank. The other problem is likelihood of injury, which the younger players have taken care of nicely.

    Monty getting re-hurt is horrible timing and might have been the most costly mistake this year. If they were pushing it by practicing early, it might cost their offense four games of ineptitude.

    Someone else said Cobb is known for his hands and routes. He might be known for his hands, but he is also known for his drops. And Cobb's best routes are on broken plays.

    But the culprit most easily fixed is this divide over the playbook offense and Rodger's offense that everyone was talking about in the offseason. When you have to start youngsters, that isn't helping. At this point, there aren't any youngsters left to worry about. But Monty will be back at some point I hope.

    The current version of the no huddle also has to go. I think this is the loss that will compel M3 to change up the offense, junk the offseason plan and go back to basics of design. As someone else said, they have fixed the run game to some degree. Time for the same work on the passing game.
    McCarthy really doesn't have very many bullets left in his gun. In 2010 we were hit with a similar group of injuries and didn't start coming together as a team until the last few games. If I remember correctly, the NFC that year was pretty weak. We went in as a number 6 seed and ended up winning the Super Bowl. It's kind of eerie how similar this season is to that one. There's still a lot of football to be played in December. Maybe Montgomery and Abrederis coming back allows us to adjust the offense to a 4 wide look with 2 slot receivers, similar to New England. Maybe the light comes on for Adams. It will be interesting.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by beveaux1 View Post
    McCarthy really doesn't have very many bullets left in his gun. In 2010 we were hit with a similar group of injuries and didn't start coming together as a team until the last few games. If I remember correctly, the NFC that year was pretty weak. We went in as a number 6 seed and ended up winning the Super Bowl. It's kind of eerie how similar this season is to that one. There's still a lot of football to be played in December. Maybe Montgomery and Abrederis coming back allows us to adjust the offense to a 4 wide look with 2 slot receivers, similar to New England. Maybe the light comes on for Adams. It will be interesting.
    Good luck with that, imo this team is nothing like that 2010 team. in 2010 even when the rest of the team was playing like shit, Rodgers was playing solid if I remember right. This season Rodgers is leading the ones that look like poo.

  11. #71
    Drowned Rat HOFer denverYooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rutnstrut View Post
    Good luck with that, imo this team is nothing like that 2010 team. in 2010 even when the rest of the team was playing like shit, Rodgers was playing solid if I remember right. This season Rodgers is leading the ones that look like poo.
    Rodgers and the offense struggled during several games that season. They were 10th in ppg that year. 11th this year with enough games left to move up yet.

    The 2010 comarison is not as far out of line as you seem to think.
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  12. #72
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rutnstrut View Post
    Good luck with that, imo this team is nothing like that 2010 team. in 2010 even when the rest of the team was playing like shit, Rodgers was playing solid if I remember right. This season Rodgers is leading the ones that look like poo.
    Rodgers looked like total garbage at Detroit before his concussion. He definitely got on a roll, but still struggled with Chicago. The Defense pulled their own weight that season.

    DYoop is right - this team could look like 2010, but they'd have to hit their stride with Abracadabra and Monty and maybe Q-less. They need their depth to come through, just like it did in 2010 (e.g. Shields, Walden, Green...)
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