Official 2016 Offseason Workouts/OTA/Minicamp Thread

[wist43]

`````In that 2-4 that Wist loves, you could feature Matthews, Perry, Peppers, and Jones (or Elliot) and really keep the other side guessing as to which elephant will be covering the running back.

The facet of the 2-4 that I hate, is that dunderdummy plays it when the opponent is as likely to run as pass; when they run - we usually get run over and give up huge chunks of yardage on the ground. The opponent will take what you give them - why attempt to pass for 15 yds, when dunderdummy is willing to concede 15 yds on the ground??

If in that either/or situation, dunderdummy plays two fat guys in the middle (the Jumbo) in an attempt to deal with the run - then he is essentially giving up any hope of generating pressure up the middle, the ends/LBs predictably fly upfield, and the QB gets a comfortable pocket.

Add to the fact that he sees nothing wrong with abandoning the middle of the field... it's just mind-numbing stupidity and painful to watch.

Given our personnel, the 3-3 has been the better option for several years now.

[pbmax]

The facet of the 2-4 that I hate, is that dunderdummy plays it when the opponent is as likely to run as pass; when they run - we usually get run over and give up huge chunks of yardage on the ground. The opponent will take what you give them - why attempt to pass for 15 yds, when dunderdummy is willing to concede 15 yds on the ground??

If in that either/or situation, dunderdummy plays two fat guys in the middle (the Jumbo) in an attempt to deal with the run - then he is essentially giving up any hope of generating pressure up the middle, the ends/LBs predictably fly upfield, and the QB gets a comfortable pocket.

Add to the fact that he sees nothing wrong with abandoning the middle of the field... it's just mind-numbing stupidity and painful to watch.

Given our personnel, the 3-3 has been the better option for several years now.

Capers is matching personnel (3 wide) as well as run/pass likelihood. If you play base or run heavy, the offense wants to pass. If you play pass first, their run likelihood goes up (see Forte versus the Packers).

And I disagree about the match for the Packers players in a 3-3. There are few, if any, pass rush options to man the three down positions. Raji, Daniels and Jones would be the likely LOS and Jones has struggled mightily versus the run. Raji has not shown his pass rush regularly in a few years.

You need Matthews/Perry and Peppers on the outside for the pass rush alone. As that is job one, you make do if the offense chooses to run. It worked with Matthews in the middle. We'll see this year.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Capers is matching personnel (3 wide) as well as run/pass likelihood. If you play base or run heavy, the offense wants to pass. If you play pass first, their run likelihood goes up (see Forte versus the Packers).

And I disagree about the match for the Packers players in a 3-3. There are few, if any, pass rush options to man the three down positions. Raji, Daniels and Jones would be the likely LOS and Jones has struggled mightily versus the run. Raji has not shown his pass rush regularly in a few years.

You need Matthews/Perry and Peppers on the outside for the pass rush alone. As that is job one, you make do if the offense chooses to run. It worked with Matthews in the middle. We'll see this year.

Agreed. It's all about your personnel. The Packers don't have the personnel to run a 3-3 front a lot. Most of the teams that play 3-4 base use a 2-4 front more than a 3-3 front. There are quite a few teams that play a 4-3 base that play 3-3 fronts, but those teams tend to have lighter, pass rushing type DL. 3-4 base teams tend to have more NT types who aren't great pass rushers. In reality, most teams are multiple nowadays. They'll mix in 3-4, 4-3, 3-3, 2-4, 4-2 at various times, but your personnel is going to determine what you play the most.

[wist43]

Capers is matching personnel (3 wide) as well as run/pass likelihood. If you play base or run heavy, the offense wants to pass. If you play pass first, their run likelihood goes up (see Forte versus the Packers).

And I disagree about the match for the Packers players in a 3-3. There are few, if any, pass rush options to man the three down positions. Raji, Daniels and Jones would be the likely LOS and Jones has struggled mightily versus the run. Raji has not shown his pass rush regularly in a few years.

You need Matthews/Perry and Peppers on the outside for the pass rush alone. As that is job one, you make do if the offense chooses to run. It worked with Matthews in the middle. We'll see this year.

Agreed. It's all about your personnel. The Packers don't have the personnel to run a 3-3 front a lot. Most of the teams that play 3-4 base use a 2-4 front more than a 3-3 front. There are quite a few teams that play a 4-3 base that play 3-3 fronts, but those teams tend to have lighter, pass rushing type DL. 3-4 base teams tend to have more NT types who aren't great pass rushers. In reality, most teams are multiple nowadays. They'll mix in 3-4, 4-3, 3-3, 2-4, 4-2 at various times, but your personnel is going to determine what you play the most.

Yeah right... b/c everyone loved watching AJ Hawk and Brad Jones on the field 24/7

This year and moving forward though, TT seems to have made a bigger mess of the DL, as there is only 1 DL on the roster (Daniels) that has any business on the field in a pass rush situation.

Datone Jones has pretty much proven himself a bust; they moved Perry to LB, but that doesn't preclude him putting his hand in the dirt; I like Guion, but he's strictly a run defender; Clark won't offer any pass rush...

Hell, we might as well just go with a 1-5 and jungle rush anyone who feels like moving forward at the snap.

I think the front seven is going to take a serious step backward this year. They're going to have no choice but to go with 2 of Barrington, Ryan, or Martinez... Barrington and Ryan can't run; and even though Martinez isn't a blazer either, he might be the best of that bunch. Moving Clay back outside is definitely going to hurt the defense overall.

[Fritz]

Yeah right... b/c everyone loved watching AJ Hawk and Brad Jones on the field 24/7

This year and moving forward though, TT seems to have made a bigger mess of the DL, as there is only 1 DL on the roster (Daniels) that has any business on the field in a pass rush situation.

Datone Jones has pretty much proven himself a bust; they moved Perry to LB, but that doesn't preclude him putting his hand in the dirt; I like Guion, but he's strictly a run defender; Clark won't offer any pass rush...

Hell, we might as well just go with a 1-5 and jungle rush anyone who feels like moving forward at the snap.

I think the front seven is going to take a serious step backward this year. They're going to have no choice but to go with 2 of Barrington, Ryan, or Martinez... Barrington and Ryan can't run; and even though Martinez isn't a blazer either, he might be the best of that bunch. Moving Clay back outside is definitely going to hurt the defense overall.

We'll see.

[Fritz]

Yeah right... b/c everyone loved watching AJ Hawk and Brad Jones on the field 24/7

This year and moving forward though, TT seems to have made a bigger mess of the DL, as there is only 1 DL on the roster (Daniels) that has any business on the field in a pass rush situation.

Datone Jones has pretty much proven himself a bust; they moved Perry to LB, but that doesn't preclude him putting his hand in the dirt; I like Guion, but he's strictly a run defender; Clark won't offer any pass rush...

Hell, we might as well just go with a 1-5 and jungle rush anyone who feels like moving forward at the snap.

I think the front seven is going to take a serious step backward this year. They're going to have no choice but to go with 2 of Barrington, Ryan, or Martinez... Barrington and Ryan can't run; and even though Martinez isn't a blazer either, he might be the best of that bunch. Moving Clay back outside is definitely going to hurt the defense overall.

I thought that TJ Lang's commentary in the JSO on today's defensive tackles might help explain both why the Packer guards are not the old-timey maulers, and what today's defensive lineman looks like and what the advantages might be in not having a line filled with slow-moving run-stuffers...

"You see D-tackles in this league lately? (laughs)," Lang said. "You see the evolution of the defensive linemen in this league. You rarely get the 350-pounders anymore.

"Everybody is strong, everybody is fast, everybody is quick, everybody can rush the passer and everybody can stop the run. We don't go against those big space eaters anymore.

"I still feel there's a sense of, when you think about guards, you think about being maulers and run blockers. Maybe that was the case 10, 15, 20 years ago — but you look around the league now and those guys have to be pass blocking. And I think playing guard — it's not what it used to be. I think it's a more important position than many people think."