Official 2016 Offseason Workouts/OTA/Minicamp Thread

[wist43]

http://www.footballstudyhall.com/201...5-vs-the-3-3-5

This is an interesting read. I wanted to know what the difference is between the two nickel subs, and this article explains it pretty well. It got me wondering whether the Packers ever run a 3-3-5 formation, as Wist suggests, and if not, why? Is it all about coaching preference, and does that influence how the defensive roster is built? What would it take for the Packers to run the 3-3 vs. the 2-4 nickel?

Nice find, good article...

This is from the article, and it is what I have been saying for the past few years...

http://www.footballstudyhall.com/201...5-vs-the-3-3-5

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"The 2-4-5 is ultimately a defense of specialization as the main pass-rushers are going to be the two stand-up edge rushers. The defense deploys them on the edge because that's the easiest way to utilize a pure pass-rusher and they aren't asked to do a great deal other than control the edge and provide pressure. The defensive tackles will tend to specialize in clogging up the interior and helping collapse the pocket while the linebackers are running free as support players.

Without access to the kind of elite pass-rushers that can attack the edge and overcome an offense's best efforts at pass protection, the 2-4-5 is not a superior nickel package. It can also struggle against the run if defensive tackles aren't sturdy or the linebackers are deficient. However, it is the simplest and best way to allow big, fast, and powerful athletes to impact the game and attack the quarterback.

The 3-3-5, or 8-3, is more a defense of versatility and disguise that will require the DL to all be strong at filling interior gaps and ideally decent or good at collapsing the pocket. The linebackers are not specialists but "jacks of all trades" that can be transformed into superior pass-rushers by virtue of the system disguising where they are blitzing from.

Without versatile and intelligent players, the 3-3 is dead in the water, but when those pieces are in place it can pick on offense's weaknesses with greater precision and bring pressure from all angles."

--------------------------------------------------------------

We can assign our players to the responsibilities listed above, but there are variations with how dunderdummy runs things.

Going back to when he ran the "jumbo", Raji and Pickett didn't get any push at all, and as should have been obvious to everyone, our outside rushers would fly upfield and either leave the QB with a comfortable pocket, or massive escape lanes to the sides.

Worse still was dunderdummy's penchant for lining his DT's up over the outside shoulder of the G's, while the 2nd level LB's were pulled out of the middle with coverage responsibilities - the result is "abandoning the middle of the field". Don't know how many times that idiot did that, and we'd get smashed up the middle on the ground for 15-20 yds.

[wist43]

Another point to running either alignment in today's game, is that you need a speed LB in the Ryan Shazier, Telvin Smith, Shaq Thompson, Deon Jones mold.

Ted had plenty of opportunity to snag Smith, a player I was calling for TT to draft... Smith went in the 5th round, pick #144, when Ted took Carl Bradford in the 4th round, pick #121; Khyri Thorton in the 3rd round, pick #85; and TE Richard Rodgers in the 3rd round, pick #98

Thornton has been released and is flopping around the league; Bradford will be lucky to remain on the roster for another year, and has done exactly nothing; and Richard Rodgers is a the poster child for "pedestrian" TE's, and TT was forced to poke himself in the eye and actually sign a FA at the position.

While Telvin Smith is well on his way to being a star.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

TT would have had to move up to get Shazier or Thompson, but he spit on Jones twice in this draft. I don't mind him passing on Jones for Spriggs, but Clark in the 1st round (an Okay player) at the expense missing out on another speed LB is going to hurt us on the field again this year.

If you're going to take a guy like Clark in the 1st, when the position was uber-deep, and he was likely to still be there in the 2nd - and, missing out on Jones?? It doesn't make any sense.

We end up with Martinez in the 4th, but Martinez can't run anywhere near as well as Jones... I like Martinez, he's a smart and instinctive player; but then again so is Jake Ryan - who looked pretty terrible most of the time last year.

TT's vision for the ILB position isn't good at all.

[Carolina_Packer]

Nice find, good article...

This is from the article, and it is what I have been saying for the past few years...

http://www.footballstudyhall.com/201...5-vs-the-3-3-5

--------------------------------------------------------------

"The 2-4-5 is ultimately a defense of specialization as the main pass-rushers are going to be the two stand-up edge rushers. The defense deploys them on the edge because that's the easiest way to utilize a pure pass-rusher and they aren't asked to do a great deal other than control the edge and provide pressure. The defensive tackles will tend to specialize in clogging up the interior and helping collapse the pocket while the linebackers are running free as support players.

Without access to the kind of elite pass-rushers that can attack the edge and overcome an offense's best efforts at pass protection, the 2-4-5 is not a superior nickel package. It can also struggle against the run if defensive tackles aren't sturdy or the linebackers are deficient. However, it is the simplest and best way to allow big, fast, and powerful athletes to impact the game and attack the quarterback.

The 3-3-5, or 8-3, is more a defense of versatility and disguise that will require the DL to all be strong at filling interior gaps and ideally decent or good at collapsing the pocket. The linebackers are not specialists but "jacks of all trades" that can be transformed into superior pass-rushers by virtue of the system disguising where they are blitzing from.

Without versatile and intelligent players, the 3-3 is dead in the water, but when those pieces are in place it can pick on offense's weaknesses with greater precision and bring pressure from all angles."

--------------------------------------------------------------

We can assign our players to the responsibilities listed above, but there are variations with how dunderdummy runs things.

Going back to when he ran the "jumbo", Raji and Pickett didn't get any push at all, and as should have been obvious to everyone, our outside rushers would fly upfield and either leave the QB with a comfortable pocket, or massive escape lanes to the sides.

Worse still was dunderdummy's penchant for lining his DT's up over the outside shoulder of the G's, while the 2nd level LB's were pulled out of the middle with coverage responsibilities - the result is "abandoning the middle of the field". Don't know how many times that idiot did that, and we'd get smashed up the middle on the ground for 15-20 yds.

Is that what was getting them killed in the first half of the Jets game in 2014 when they had to come back from down 18? This article talks about how they were getting killed playing the "Quad" 4-3 alignment and after they switched to 4-3 "Under" with much better results. I also found this article when trying to study what others say about the Packers defense. http://www.acmepackingcompany.com/20...ive-adjustment Is that the same thing that made Matt Forte look like Walter Payton in week 1 last year?

[pbmax]

The facet of the 2-4 that I hate, is that dunderdummy plays it when the opponent is as likely to run as pass; when they run - we usually get run over and give up huge chunks of yardage on the ground. The opponent will take what you give them - why attempt to pass for 15 yds, when dunderdummy is willing to concede 15 yds on the ground??

If in that either/or situation, dunderdummy plays two fat guys in the middle (the Jumbo) in an attempt to deal with the run - then he is essentially giving up any hope of generating pressure up the middle, the ends/LBs predictably fly upfield, and the QB gets a comfortable pocket.

Add to the fact that he sees nothing wrong with abandoning the middle of the field... it's just mind-numbing stupidity and painful to watch.

Given our personnel, the 3-3 has been the better option for several years now.

Capers is matching personnel (3 wide) as well as run/pass likelihood. If you play base or run heavy, the offense wants to pass. If you play pass first, their run likelihood goes up (see Forte versus the Packers).

And I disagree about the match for the Packers players in a 3-3. There are few, if any, pass rush options to man the three down positions. Raji, Daniels and Jones would be the likely LOS and Jones has struggled mightily versus the run. Raji has not shown his pass rush regularly in a few years.

You need Matthews/Perry and Peppers on the outside for the pass rush alone. As that is job one, you make do if the offense chooses to run. It worked with Matthews in the middle. We'll see this year.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Capers is matching personnel (3 wide) as well as run/pass likelihood. If you play base or run heavy, the offense wants to pass. If you play pass first, their run likelihood goes up (see Forte versus the Packers).

And I disagree about the match for the Packers players in a 3-3. There are few, if any, pass rush options to man the three down positions. Raji, Daniels and Jones would be the likely LOS and Jones has struggled mightily versus the run. Raji has not shown his pass rush regularly in a few years.

You need Matthews/Perry and Peppers on the outside for the pass rush alone. As that is job one, you make do if the offense chooses to run. It worked with Matthews in the middle. We'll see this year.

Agreed. It's all about your personnel. The Packers don't have the personnel to run a 3-3 front a lot. Most of the teams that play 3-4 base use a 2-4 front more than a 3-3 front. There are quite a few teams that play a 4-3 base that play 3-3 fronts, but those teams tend to have lighter, pass rushing type DL. 3-4 base teams tend to have more NT types who aren't great pass rushers. In reality, most teams are multiple nowadays. They'll mix in 3-4, 4-3, 3-3, 2-4, 4-2 at various times, but your personnel is going to determine what you play the most.

[Patler]

Lacy, is still "thick", big thighs and butt:

[pbmax]

^ I actually did not mind him bigger as much as I minded him tiring in the middle of his runs. He would get sprung and then slow down.

It was like a pavement roller moving down the highway and running out of diesel.

[George Cumby]

I like Big Butts, I cannot lie
I like Lacy, thick of thigh
Eddie, Eddie! We cheer,
Drink Pellegrino, not beer!

[Cheesehead Craig]

Jared Cook out the rest of OTAs with "preventative" foot surgery. Should be back by TC

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/15...m-foot-surgery

[wist43]

Capers is matching personnel (3 wide) as well as run/pass likelihood. If you play base or run heavy, the offense wants to pass. If you play pass first, their run likelihood goes up (see Forte versus the Packers).

And I disagree about the match for the Packers players in a 3-3. There are few, if any, pass rush options to man the three down positions. Raji, Daniels and Jones would be the likely LOS and Jones has struggled mightily versus the run. Raji has not shown his pass rush regularly in a few years.

You need Matthews/Perry and Peppers on the outside for the pass rush alone. As that is job one, you make do if the offense chooses to run. It worked with Matthews in the middle. We'll see this year.

Agreed. It's all about your personnel. The Packers don't have the personnel to run a 3-3 front a lot. Most of the teams that play 3-4 base use a 2-4 front more than a 3-3 front. There are quite a few teams that play a 4-3 base that play 3-3 fronts, but those teams tend to have lighter, pass rushing type DL. 3-4 base teams tend to have more NT types who aren't great pass rushers. In reality, most teams are multiple nowadays. They'll mix in 3-4, 4-3, 3-3, 2-4, 4-2 at various times, but your personnel is going to determine what you play the most.

Yeah right... b/c everyone loved watching AJ Hawk and Brad Jones on the field 24/7

This year and moving forward though, TT seems to have made a bigger mess of the DL, as there is only 1 DL on the roster (Daniels) that has any business on the field in a pass rush situation.

Datone Jones has pretty much proven himself a bust; they moved Perry to LB, but that doesn't preclude him putting his hand in the dirt; I like Guion, but he's strictly a run defender; Clark won't offer any pass rush...

Hell, we might as well just go with a 1-5 and jungle rush anyone who feels like moving forward at the snap.

I think the front seven is going to take a serious step backward this year. They're going to have no choice but to go with 2 of Barrington, Ryan, or Martinez... Barrington and Ryan can't run; and even though Martinez isn't a blazer either, he might be the best of that bunch. Moving Clay back outside is definitely going to hurt the defense overall.

[Patler]

Jared Cook out the rest of OTAs with "preventative" foot surgery. Should be back by TC

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/15...m-foot-surgery

Well, so much for Rodgers and Cook working to develop familiarity and timing.

[pbmax]

I love FA.

I was about to post something brilliant, along the lines of

"everyone knows you never recover from these foot problems!!"

but that is simply an overreaction. Let's look at the evidence:

Andrew Toney
Bill Walton
Cedric Benson
Ryan Kalil
Yao Ming

http://www.newswise.com/articles/car...elite-athletes

He's doomed.

[hoosier]

Jared Cook out the rest of OTAs with "preventative" foot surgery. Should be back by TC

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/15...m-foot-surgery

In other words, he will never play a down for GB. Preventative my posterior.

[Joemailman]

I'm getting tired of every article where the Packers make a roster move, they mention that John Kuhn would be still be available to sign. Enough!!!!

Cletidus Hunt and Gilbert Brown are still available for that matter, too. Maybe we should sign Greg Hardy.

Report Ripkowski could take over if Kuhn doesn't come back!

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packe...381734281.html

[Fritz]

Yeah right... b/c everyone loved watching AJ Hawk and Brad Jones on the field 24/7

This year and moving forward though, TT seems to have made a bigger mess of the DL, as there is only 1 DL on the roster (Daniels) that has any business on the field in a pass rush situation.

Datone Jones has pretty much proven himself a bust; they moved Perry to LB, but that doesn't preclude him putting his hand in the dirt; I like Guion, but he's strictly a run defender; Clark won't offer any pass rush...

Hell, we might as well just go with a 1-5 and jungle rush anyone who feels like moving forward at the snap.

I think the front seven is going to take a serious step backward this year. They're going to have no choice but to go with 2 of Barrington, Ryan, or Martinez... Barrington and Ryan can't run; and even though Martinez isn't a blazer either, he might be the best of that bunch. Moving Clay back outside is definitely going to hurt the defense overall.

We'll see.

[pbmax]

Report Ripkowski could take over if Kuhn doesn't come back!

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packe...381734281.html

That's the hard hitting reporting we can expect from the JSO/GBPG/Gannett merger.

[Fritz]

Yeah right... b/c everyone loved watching AJ Hawk and Brad Jones on the field 24/7

This year and moving forward though, TT seems to have made a bigger mess of the DL, as there is only 1 DL on the roster (Daniels) that has any business on the field in a pass rush situation.

Datone Jones has pretty much proven himself a bust; they moved Perry to LB, but that doesn't preclude him putting his hand in the dirt; I like Guion, but he's strictly a run defender; Clark won't offer any pass rush...

Hell, we might as well just go with a 1-5 and jungle rush anyone who feels like moving forward at the snap.

I think the front seven is going to take a serious step backward this year. They're going to have no choice but to go with 2 of Barrington, Ryan, or Martinez... Barrington and Ryan can't run; and even though Martinez isn't a blazer either, he might be the best of that bunch. Moving Clay back outside is definitely going to hurt the defense overall.

I thought that TJ Lang's commentary in the JSO on today's defensive tackles might help explain both why the Packer guards are not the old-timey maulers, and what today's defensive lineman looks like and what the advantages might be in not having a line filled with slow-moving run-stuffers...

"You see D-tackles in this league lately? (laughs)," Lang said. "You see the evolution of the defensive linemen in this league. You rarely get the 350-pounders anymore.

"Everybody is strong, everybody is fast, everybody is quick, everybody can rush the passer and everybody can stop the run. We don't go against those big space eaters anymore.

"I still feel there's a sense of, when you think about guards, you think about being maulers and run blockers. Maybe that was the case 10, 15, 20 years ago — but you look around the league now and those guys have to be pass blocking. And I think playing guard — it's not what it used to be. I think it's a more important position than many people think."

[pbmax]

McCarthy PC:

Jared Cook: M3 doesn't want to get into it or a timeline, but he and Dr. McKenzie are not worried. So he should be good to go by November

Jeff Janis: Doing good things, but needs to continue through fundamentals of position. Graded out very well on ST. Would like to see him make same jump as receiver.

Martinez: very comfortable in sub defense and comfortable with D calls. Bright, quick and instinctive. Very good start.

Offense: offense caught up to defense this week. Install weeks always look brutal, even in camp. In these later stages, more specialized package installations are close to previous installations and that shows up in better practice.

[pbmax]

Wayne Larrivee ‏@waynelarrivee 2h2 hours ago
In these OTAs and yesterday here at mini camp backup QB Brett Hundley is very impressive. Great command,very good and accurate arm.

Boom. Future assured.

[pbmax]

Well, his interview game has really stepped up. If his routes improve at the same amount, he could have a fine season.

http://www.packers.com/news-and-even...#ixzz4Bb70EeYo