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Thread: Kaepernick unemployment

  1. #121
    And I agree Kap' s stance is too extreme.

  2. #122
    I could be mistaken, but I think lethal force should be reviewed much more rigorously than routine police interactions. Which is not to say those routine actions shouldn't be reviewed. But the stakes involved are far higher when guns are drawn.

    I reject the argument that this represents a blanket condemnation of all police. The second officer on the scene didn't lose his mind. But there are those who should not be on the force while armed. And this guy should not get a similar job with another department after this incident. His training might have been lax, his skills might be below par, or he may not deal with stressful situations well.

    But it should not take a death to make the HR judgement that he is not fit to be an armed police officer.

    Arguing the Kaepernick is being emotional or over the top is simply avoiding the main question by concentrating on who is reacting the right way. The right thing to do is to make sure this person, and others like him who cause deaths needlessly, do not work at this same position again. Then you update the training for all departments to prevent it (and weed people out) before more deaths occur.

    It doesn't matter if he shot Castile, the Pope, my grandmother or my dog, he doesn't belong in uniform carrying a gun if this is how he handles himself. Did his training fail him? Maybe, but we will never know* because he will be brushed off the front page and the odds are that nothing will change.

    *If anyone discovers a piece describing what might have gone into this from a training or personal perspective, post a link.
    Last edited by pbmax; 06-23-2017 at 01:46 PM.
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  3. #123
    Indenial Rat HOFer bobblehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
    You began by focusing on what you surmise where the errors committed by the victim, and you refer to him as a perpetrator. It is not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that you hold Castille primarily responsible for his own fate.
    I said:

    "He is largely right. In nearly every police shooting I can tell you what the perp did wrong. Problem is that in several police shootings I can point out what the officer did wrong also."

    And I referred to Castille as a dumb ass, not a perp. Perp was the general term I used for people shot by cops. I specifically didn't refer to him as a perp because he wasn't one.

    I focused on this one instance because Castille did about everything wrong you could do. I still think the officer over reacted...a lot. But I would like to have been on the jury to see everything. I'm not sure I would have convicted him, but I might have.

    I also focused on him because it was the case that hit the news most recently, and I would like to raise awareness about how NOT to get shot if you are pulled over while carrying. I try to be a very responsible gun owner. Everyone should.

    Now, if you want me to take the side of an officer I can. In milwaukee a PERP throws a gun as he is shot in the bicep. 1.69 seconds later he is shot in the chest and killed. The DA charged the officer with 1st degree reckless homicide. Holy shit, who would ever want to be a cop...not me.
    I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.

  4. #124
    Indenial Rat HOFer bobblehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisnowman View Post
    Having a tail light out while being a black man shouldn't give the cops the right to assume he is likely a violent perpetrator. I mean seriously how often has a man been pulled over for a traffic violation ONLY, and ended up murdering the cop? Let alone after calmly and politely telling the officer he had a legal firearm and with his family in the car. Cops have plenty of respectable interactions in similar situations, without being the agitator, aggressor, and unloading seven rounds into another human. The cop had zero reason to be afraid for his life, so non premeditated murder that isn't self-defense = manslaughter.

    I can disagree about being pulled over for the tail light. I have been pulled over for that. Its their job. The rest has to do with the way they train cops. Some intelligent people can overcome the "us vs. them" training. Consider every citizen a possible murderer. Be 100% vigilant all the time. They call the training para military, but the problem is that officers aren't at war, they are dealing with citizens.

    It does NOT equal manslaughter though. Police are put in these situation. Given society the way its been an office has EVERY reason to be afraid for his life in ANY traffic stop. Thats why they can't be charged with manslaughter (realistically) but only reckless homicide as long as it was in the line of duty. First mistake the DA made was overcharging and not offering the alternative.

    There is a line between where you are and where their training lies. Be vigilant, but use your damn noodle.
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  5. #125
    Indenial Rat HOFer bobblehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    I could be mistaken, but I think lethal force should be reviewed much more rigorously than routine police interactions. Which is not to say those routine actions shouldn't be reviewed. But the stakes involved are far higher when guns are drawn.

    I reject the argument that this represents a blanket condemnation of all police. The second officer on the scene didn't lose his mind. But there are those who should not be on the force while armed. And this guy should not get a similar job with another department after this incident. His training might have been lax, his skills might be below par, or he may not deal with stressful situations well.

    But it should not take a death to make the HR judgement that he is not fit to be an armed police officer.

    Arguing the Kaepernick is being emotional or over the top is simply avoiding the main question by concentrating on who is reacting the right way. The right thing to do is to make sure this person, and others like him who cause deaths needlessly, do not work at this same position again. Then you update the training for all departments to prevent it (and weed people out) before more deaths occur.

    It doesn't matter if he shot Castile, the Pope, my grandmother or my dog, he doesn't belong in uniform carrying a gun if this is how he handles himself. Did his training fail him? Maybe, but we will never know* because he will be brushed off the front page and the odds are that nothing will change.

    *If anyone discovers a piece describing what might have gone into this from a training or personal perspective, post a link.
    Good post except for your very first point. If this officer had had his routine interactions reviewed much more vigorously by his superiors someone might have figured out he doesn't handle things well long before someone died. OR maybe not. What makes it so tough to convict a cop is that he is in these situations all the time. He might get 999 of them right, but than that one night his eyes and brain missed a beat and someone bringing his hands up into sight appears to be someone coming up with a weapon and in that instance you make a lethal error. Murder? Manslaughter? If we hold the police to such a standard that their one mistake lands them in prison, no one ever wants to be a cop.
    I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.

  6. #126
    Bobble, I'm inclined to agree that a large part of the problem is that police are trained to see themselves as warriors. Community policing and deescalation need to be emphasized more. That's a failure in leadership and education, but I suspect there is also a deeper societal issue here because ultimately police forces are not purely autonomous institutions, they are instruments that serve power interests.

    You seem to be contradicting yourself about what makes it hard to convict cops. Or maybe not, maybe the average jurist really does end up concluding that they're not in a position to second guess the people who are out in the streets. If that is the case then they should never have been chosen as jurists.

  7. #127
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    I could be mistaken, but I think lethal force should be reviewed much more rigorously than routine police interactions. Which is not to say those routine actions shouldn't be reviewed. But the stakes involved are far higher when guns are drawn.

    I reject the argument that this represents a blanket condemnation of all police. The second officer on the scene didn't lose his mind. But there are those who should not be on the force while armed. And this guy should not get a similar job with another department after this incident. His training might have been lax, his skills might be below par, or he may not deal with stressful situations well.

    But it should not take a death to make the HR judgement that he is not fit to be an armed police officer.

    Arguing the Kaepernick is being emotional or over the top is simply avoiding the main question by concentrating on who is reacting the right way. The right thing to do is to make sure this person, and others like him who cause deaths needlessly, do not work at this same position again. Then you update the training for all departments to prevent it (and weed people out) before more deaths occur.

    It doesn't matter if he shot Castile, the Pope, my grandmother or my dog, he doesn't belong in uniform carrying a gun if this is how he handles himself. Did his training fail him? Maybe, but we will never know* because he will be brushed off the front page and the odds are that nothing will change.

    *If anyone discovers a piece describing what might have gone into this from a training or personal perspective, post a link.
    It seems to me you are confusing points. First is Kap: is his view legitimate or not? I argue it is not because it is a blanket treatment of cops as bad. This is not shocking; he is not alone in this view - saw very similar views just today in my liberal community arguing that police should not be called for altercations because they just shoot all blacks dead. That's what they do because they are racists. So is his reaction appropriate? Is this general reaction to police appropriate? Is Kap reacting in the right way? Well, considering people in the NFL want nothing to do with him suggests that he's reacting in an inflammatory way. Kap's reaction is the main issue, because as I said, police encounters happen by the hundreds of thousands and Kap is making like these highly charged and publicized cases that show police in a bad light are the norm, and are certainly due to the pervasive racism of police. A lot of people don't agree with him, even those who strongly believe there is a problem.

    Second is whether the cop is a murderer or manslaughter. Possibly, but the jury didn't agree. More likely, as you point out, he's a poor police officer, who doesn't have a good sense of whether a situation is escalating to a confrontation with a 'suspect' or is just a situation with a guy who is high and impaired, has a gun, but is not a threat. The police force will determine that. I hope they have enough motivation to remove a bad officer over protecting 'one of their own.' If scrutiny could do anything it might make police more carful about techniques, training and evaluation. But again, there will be mistakes and difficult encounters even with highly trained and decent officers. The actual result of much of the recent scrutiny has been for police to withdraw from positive policing in communities, and in many cases, it's led to more crime.

    If the press decides to continue their protocol of advancing the narrative that both incites and confirms anti-police bias, you'll continue to see the very rare cases endlessly running on video loops, so long as they can get the video. There are plenty of resources to find out the exact level of police bias but I suspect our essentially leftwing media and entertainment industries will continue to sell the story of rampant institutional police hatred of, bigotry towards, and indiscriminate slaughter of racial minorities. It looks like for now, the NFL and fans aren't buying this extreme view. If Kap wants a job, he's going to have to moderate his tone or vastly improve his game to become indispensable.
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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    Did his training fail him? Maybe, but we will never know* because he will be brushed off the front page and the odds are that nothing will change.

    *If anyone discovers a piece describing what might have gone into this from a training or personal perspective, post a link.
    There were a couple of articles in the NYT and WP shortly after that tried to get into the question of police training in whatever the suburb is called (St Anthony? Isn't Minneapolis supposed to leave the Catholic names on the other side of the river?). As Rand will surely point out, they come from the leftie mainstream media so take them with however much salt you please. The Times article suggests that some of the cop's recent training may have included some tactical sessions based on a warrior outlook. The WaPo article, misleadingly titled, is purely anecdotal (anecdote of one person) and speculative. So it's something but not enough to build a case around.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/u...uestioned.html
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.81bf0f6fe41a

  9. #129
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
    The Times article suggests that some of the cop's recent training may have included some tactical sessions based on a warrior outlook.
    I've heard the same thing from some southside cops. That, plus demographic prejudice can lead to some cops having hair triggers. It's a messy world. I wish I had a good answer how to de-escalate the rhetoric and the police encounters. Believe it or not, most cops don't want to shoot someone. But if they don't have the experience and wisdom to handle what seem to be tense but non-life threatening situations, they shouldn't be out there. The 'us or them' rhetoric doesn't seem to be helping.
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  10. #130
    Indenial Rat HOFer bobblehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
    Bobble, I'm inclined to agree that a large part of the problem is that police are trained to see themselves as warriors. Community policing and deescalation need to be emphasized more. That's a failure in leadership and education, but I suspect there is also a deeper societal issue here because ultimately police forces are not purely autonomous institutions, they are instruments that serve power interests.

    You seem to be contradicting yourself about what makes it hard to convict cops. Or maybe not, maybe the average jurist really does end up concluding that they're not in a position to second guess the people who are out in the streets. If that is the case then they should never have been chosen as jurists.
    I am contradicting myself. (in your eyes). Its a very difficult issue that everyone wants to paint as black and white.

    Black: Cops kill people for no reason!

    White: Cops are heroes who can never do wrong!

    Reality: Cops are people. Some good, some bad. Mistakes happen, some egregious that shouldn't, some that are understandable.

    But I don't think I am contradicting myself because In my eyes I have been arguing both sides from the start.
    I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by mraynrand View Post
    I've heard the same thing from some southside cops. That, plus demographic prejudice can lead to some cops having hair triggers. It's a messy world. I wish I had a good answer how to de-escalate the rhetoric and the police encounters. Believe it or not, most cops don't want to shoot someone. But if they don't have the experience and wisdom to handle what seem to be tense but non-life threatening situations, they shouldn't be out there. The 'us or them' rhetoric doesn't seem to be helping.
    I don't doubt that, as people, most cops don't want ever to be in the position of pulling the trigger and that many of those who do will be haunted or destroyed by the experience. But the culture and the training seem to be more powerful than the individual's conscience. David Couper, who became chief of the Madison PD in the midst of the student riots in the early 70s, had a real talent for calming heated situations. His take on current the current situation is that dialogue between police and community is impeded by cultural chasm. Police don't see themselves as public servants and don't want to listen to criticism or accept direction from the community because the community has never been in their shoes. He has some fairly specific recommendations for improving police-community relations in his book Arrested Development.

  12. #132
    Stout Rat HOFer Guiness's Avatar
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    holy fucking take it to FYI folks
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  13. #133
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
    I don't doubt that, as people, most cops don't want ever to be in the position of pulling the trigger and that many of those who do will be haunted or destroyed by the experience. But the culture and the training seem to be more powerful than the individual's conscience. David Couper, who became chief of the Madison PD in the midst of the student riots in the early 70s, had a real talent for calming heated situations. His take on current the current situation is that dialogue between police and community is impeded by cultural chasm. Police don't see themselves as public servants and don't want to listen to criticism or accept direction from the community because the community has never been in their shoes. He has some fairly specific recommendations for improving police-community relations in his book Arrested Development.
    Your language is nicer than Kap and friends, but you too see the 'cultural chasm' as being entirely the fault of the police. What is the 'cultural chasm?' Who caused it? Who is using it as a political weapon? It may surprise you that most people in 'culturally chasmed' communities, while distrusting the police, still depend on them for some level of safety. People who hate the police still seem to call 911 when a victim of the cultural chasm inflicts physical rearrangement on them or appropriates objects from them.
    "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

  14. #134
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiness View Post
    holy fucking take it to FYI folks
    PBmax is too busy for that.
    "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Guiness View Post
    holy fucking take it to FYI folks
    I'm here,
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    I'm ...

    Well, I'm going to stay here until Mad shuts the thread down whether it rhymes or not.
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  16. #136
    I seriously doubt all of Kaepernick's thoughts are truly condensed down in that one Tweet after the Castile verdict. He has spoken far more thoughtfully prior. If somehow it represents a change of mind, I guess we will find out in the due course of time.

    But the crux of the matter are lethal engagements that are completely avoidable. And the police, or the local sheriffs, are the institution centralized enough to adopt a different approach to reduce the number.

    Community wide engagement to reduce hostile interactions is fine, but its will take longer to ramp up and be more expensive than to work from within. Same with hiring demographics, though both are fine areas to address.

    The goal cannot simply be fewer police deaths. It has to include fewer civilian casualties. And I think the place to start is to have far more specific definitions that "believed he was in danger" for a threshold to action. Its not falsifiable and is impossible to adjudicate fairly.
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by mraynrand View Post
    Your language is nicer than Kap and friends, but you too see the 'cultural chasm' as being entirely the fault of the police. What is the 'cultural chasm?' Who caused it? Who is using it as a political weapon? It may surprise you that most people in 'culturally chasmed' communities, while distrusting the police, still depend on them for some level of safety. People who hate the police still seem to call 911 when a victim of the cultural chasm inflicts physical rearrangement on them or appropriates objects from them.
    Max's post already addresses the main point where I disagree with what you write: we're not just talking about individuals (cops and civilians), we're talking about how institutions train their officers. In the end it doesn't really matter how much "fault" you or I attribute to police when we're talking about preventable deaths that result from police misinterpretation, overreaction or whatever, because it's training (or training and legal codes) that will affect how frequently those things happen. The only thing I will add to what Max wrote is that, from a moral perspective, I believe that the police, as representatives of the law, should in a very specific way be held to a higher standard of conduct than civilians. The militarization of policing over the past few decades is detrimental to that principle, as is the idea that perceived danger is sufficient justification for use of lethal force.

  18. #138
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Police are held to a higher standard

  19. #139
    Bottom line imo. Kap is a POS that isn't really that into football.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rutnstrut View Post
    Bottom line imo. Kap is a POS that isn't really that into football.
    Aw damn, I almost have to agree with The Rut. IMO Kap is not trying very hard to play football, he isn't (visibly to the public) working very hard at getting a job; not giving interviews saying he wants to play, talking about his SB experience, etc, or anything else that would put pressure on the league to take him seriously.
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