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Thread: McCarthy's Offense: McAdoo Edition

  1. #1

    McCarthy's Offense: McAdoo Edition

    McCarthy has been called out for a predictable Offensive attack a LOT in the last three years by X and O writers. He succeeds because he has the best QB in the game executing it, and because Nelson and Cobb excel at making the extended offense work.

    You have seen this in many ways. The preponderance the 11 personnel group* for the Packers (3 wides, 1 RB, 1 TE) that invites the Defense to throw out its nickel and then let the Packer offense choose whether to run or pass based on how many are in the box.

    Part of this is McCarthy's change to his offseason installation of offense during camp. This happened when the CBA altered the camp practice schedule. He wanted to install less volume. One immediate difference was that he sent out different personnel groups out less frequently. In 2009, 10 and 11, he sent waves of people out there almost every play. Each formation causing the defense to react and substitute, giving M3 the matchup he wanted. It helped he had 4 starting caliber WRs plus Michael Finley.

    The loss of Finley also helps explain some of the change, though in a any 11 personnel, you need an effective TE. But without a monster at TE, its much easier to deal with both running and receiving threats in the middle of the field. This was also the era where several good D teams found that you could slow down the Packer O with solid 2 Man defense. That is, man coverage at the LOS, and 2 deep safeties. Packers weren't designed to beat that coverage quickly.

    The great Packer Offensive Drought of 2015 and 16 was also driven by more than changes to the offseason schedule or film. Receivers were hurt and the depth at WR was sparse. There was no TE and no middle of the field game. Patler will be along shortly to remind us that M3 once said Favre loved throwing into the middle of the field, Rodgers loved going outside. Without a personnel advantage in the middle, most of Rodgers looks go outside, giving the defense an advantage.

    However, the Great O Drought made something else glaringly obvious: McCarthy's simplified offense did little to help over matched skill position talent. In previous years, he has added plays to help the TE or slot WR get open against isolated coverage. Or he sent out personnel groups to force substitutions on Defense then call a counter intuitive play (pass out of heavy formation, usually a roll out).

    But he dramatically announced before 2015 (maybe that was 2016) that they had done too much of this and needed to win matchups one on one and not rely on scheming or new plays. So there was little in the new O to help out-matched receivers against good man coverage and M3 was stubbornly not going to add it.

    McCarthy has also never been fond of going off script, he prefers to stick with the play calls they have practiced off the game plan even when its late and the team is behind. It takes a true calamity before they reopen the back of the playbook. Holmgren's Favre teams did this more routinely, pulled a play back from earlier in the season and the team loved to talk about their ability to do this. But only once do I remember M3 talking about a call back like that. He talked about it like it was one of the stranger things to have happened to him on the sideline. Also, because in that case I think the play worked.

    By the end of the Drought, McCarthy had given up sticking with the skinny playbook and Cook gave him a player he could matchup with Cobb to make the middle of the defense miserable. Cook also was very good, read: fast, at running crossing routes. Somewhere in a more banjo thread is a video of Jordy Nelson running a crossing route I think prior to Cook's return to functioning. Its there not because it was successful, it was, but because no one could remember anyone running a crossing route versus man coverage since Finley.

    However, lest you think this is an indictment, McCarthy has basically reneged on the no scheming stance in 2017. This season has featured a LOT of stacks (2 receivers in a line) or bunch formations (3 receivers) to get a receiver a clean release off the LOS. The only thing he has not added is motion. The Packers do motion, but its for the pre snap read or to influence the defense, not to get the WR a free release.


    * that's shorthand means # of running backs/# of TEs. Their are almost always 5 skill positions on the field, so the difference equals the number of WRs. 11 personnel is 1 RB/1 TE, 3 WR. 0/1 is empty backfield and a TE. 1/0 is RB with no TE and 4 wides.
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  2. #2
    So what does this have to do with Ben McAdoo?

    Read this: http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2...en_mcadoo.html

    McAdoo left the Packers after 2013. After the offense had been slimmed down and the 11 personnel because predominant. Outside of Beckham, if you watch the Giants on offense, its like watching the Packer Drought offense minus Aaron Rodgers but plus inaccurate Eli Manning.

    Its football evolution working to snuff out a variant that isn't successful. McCarthy had Rodgers and it allowed him time to come to his senses. McAdoo doesn't have that luxury. Its amazing they have been this patient.
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  3. #3
    Its one thing when a player says they know what you are doing. Defenders only say this when they are winning. No CB said we know what play is coming but you torched me for a TD anyway. The comment that caught my eye is from Cincy's D coordinator to Sean McDonough.

    But with the Giants 0-4 and ranked 30th in the NFL in scoring, Beckham shared a conversation he had with Buccaneers cornerback Vernon Hargreaves after Sunday's 25-23 loss.

    "He was just like, 'You know, we know a lot of what you're doing,' " Beckham said.

    That's a damning comment, but it's also not the first time an opponent has pointed out the Giants' predictability. Monday Night Football announcer Sean McDonough relayed a conversation with Bengals defensive coordinator Paul Guenther about how simple it was to prepare for the Giants' West Coast offense during the broadcast of their Week 10 meeting last season.
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  4. #4
    There are personnel factors at work with the Giants as well. Beckham has been hurt and they lost his running mate Victor Cruz to injuries and physical ineffectiveness. Sterling Shepard has only begun to assert himself.

    They have no TE threat.

    And the O line is the worst position group on the team.

    Still, McAdoo is being stymied by the same Cover 2 man that almost undid Rodgers and McCarthy.
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

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    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    How about this analogy from basketball. You know the phrase "he can make his own shot" - the better/great players can get open and then have an easier shot. Packer wide receivers lacked this during the drought. Jennings could make his own shot, that is, get open against press man coverage. But he declined/left. Rodgers could do the equivalent with Nelson on sideline outs and comebacks, but when Nelson got injured, both options were gone. I don't think Nelson will ever return to top form, so it's essential to run those other schemes. Or maybe draft a WR who can get open.

    It would be nice if they'd use Bennett up the seam instead of the short outs and 3 yard buttonhooks.
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    Neo Rat HOFer Fritz's Avatar
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    So you're concluding, PB, that MM has worked his way out of that slump he was in?

    Whew. I was tired of him trying to grit his teeth and force things. Great coaches roll with what they're given.
    "The Devine era is actually worse than you remember if you go back and look at it."

    KYPack

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    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    McCarthy has been called out for a predictable Offensive attack a LOT in the last three years by X and O writers. He succeeds because he has the best QB in the game executing it, and because Nelson and Cobb excel at making the extended offense work.
    You have seen this in many ways. The preponderance the 11 personnel group* for the Packers (3 wides, 1 RB, 1 TE) that invites the Defense to throw out its nickel and then let the Packer offense choose whether to run or pass based on how many are in the box.

    This was also the era where several good D teams found that you could slow down the Packer O with solid 2 Man defense. That is, man coverage at the LOS, and 2 deep safeties. Packers weren't designed to beat that coverage quickly.

    However, the Great O Drought made something else glaringly obvious: McCarthy's simplified offense did little to help over matched skill position talent. In previous years, he has added plays to help the TE or slot WR get open against isolated coverage. Or he sent out personnel groups to force substitutions on Defense then call a counter intuitive play (pass out of heavy formation, usually a roll out).

    But he dramatically announced before 2015 (maybe that was 2016) that they had done too much of this and needed to win matchups one on one and not rely on scheming or new plays. So there was little in the new O to help out-matched receivers against good man coverage and M3 was stubbornly not going to add it.

    By the end of the Drought, McCarthy had given up sticking with the skinny playbook and Cook gave him a player he could matchup with Cobb to make the middle of the defense miserable. Cook also was very good, read: fast, at running crossing routes. Somewhere in a more banjo thread is a video of Jordy Nelson running a crossing route I think prior to Cook's return to functioning. Its there not because it was successful, it was, but because no one could remember anyone running a crossing route versus man coverage since Finley.
    Here’s what really happened. McCarthy used significantly MORE 11 personnel (28% increase) and more 20 personnel (empty backfield – highly predictable play selection with no RB), simplified the offense by calling more plays designed with fewer reads and/or dictating to Rodgers to make fewer progressions/adjustments and get the ball out more quickly – and it opened up the entire offense.
    https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/p...frequency.html
    Amazing site for custom team stats BTW


    2016 Tale of 2 Seasons

    All Personnel Groupings Used >1% of the Time, Run/Pass Rates and Success/Production

    Weeks 1-11 Record 4-6
    Personnel:..............1-1 [3WR]...0-1 [4WR]...1-2 [2WR]...0-0 [5WR]... 2-1 [2WR]...2-0 [3WR]
    % of Total Plays:.........46%...........22%.............8%... ..........8%.............6%.............3%
    Total Plays:................306.............143......... .....52...............51.............40........... ....23
    Successful Play Rate:...47%............49%...........38%.......... ..45%...........40%............48%
    Pass ATT:...................213..............121....... ......22...............41.............14.......... ......7
    Pass Rate:..................70%............85%......... ...42%............80%..........35%...........30%
    Successful Pass %:......47%............48%............32%......... ...44%..........29%...........71%
    Passer Rating:.............99.7............89.4.......... ..110.............99.6..........101.8..........113 .7
    Run Rate:...................30%............15%........ ....58%...........20%............65%...........70%
    Successful Run %:........46%...........55%............43%........ ...50%............46%...........38%
    Pass TDs:INT:.............12:6.............7:2......... ....1:0..............3:0.............0:0.......... ...0:0
    Rush TDs:....................3.................0....... ..........0................0.................0.... ...........0


    Weeks 12-21 Record 9-1
    Personnel:...............1-1 [3WR]...0-1 [4WR]...2-0 [3WR]...1-2 [2WR]...2-1 [2WR]...2-2 [1WR]
    % of Total Plays:...........59%.........13%...........9%..... ........6%.............5%.............3%
    Total Plays:...................332...........75......... ....50..............35..............28............ ...15
    Successful Play Rate:......52%.........60%.........56%............ 31%..........39%.............33%
    Pass ATT:.......................233..........54........ ....19...............16...............14.......... .....3
    Pass Rate:.....................70%..........72%........ 38%............46%...........50%............20%
    Successful Pass %:.........50%..........56%........63%............ 38%...........43%...........100%
    Passer Rating:................116.7........146.2......115 .6..........124.7..........79.8............136.8
    Run Rate:......................30%..........28%....... ..62%...........54%..........50%.............80%
    Successful Run %:..........55%..........71%.........52%.......... .26%..........36%.............17%
    Pass TDs:INT:................14:2...........5:0........ ..0:0.............2:0............0:0.............. 2:0
    Rush TDs:........................6..............2...... .......0................2...............0......... ........1

    For the year 2016, the Giants operated out of 11 personnel 92% of the time compared to the Packers 52%. Those stats don’t relate to McCarthy or either team’s relative slump to one another whatsoever.
    Last edited by vince; 10-06-2017 at 09:14 PM.

  8. #8
    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    He may be using more stacks and bunches but I found no empirical evidence to support that.

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    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    Teams still try to man up with 2 deep. They've gotten more effective at attacking it with guys who are healthy and can separate on quick hits to beat man-on-man, which brings the safeties up more and gets LBers on their heels a bit. That helps the running game and they also get some better opportunities later on to hit intermediate routes and get over the top on occasion. It's not something McCarthy just figured out.

  10. #10
    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2017/all

    Rodgers
    ........Time to Throw..CAY..IAY..AYD..AGG%
    2016....2.87.............6.5..9.4...-2.9...16.4
    2017....2.72.............5.3..7.3...-2......20.1

    Time To Throw (TT)
    Time to Throw measures the average amount of time elapsed from the time of snap to throw on every pass attempt for a passer (sacks excluded).

    Average Completed Air Yards (CAY) and Average Intended Air Yards (IAY)
    Air Yards is the total yards gained on a pass attempt past the line of scrimmage before the ball is caught. CAY shows the average Air Yards a passer throws on completions, and IAY shows the average Air Yards a passer throws on all attempts. This metric shows how far the ball is being thrown ‘downfield’. Air Yards is recorded as 0 when the pass is thrown to or behind the Line of Scrimmage. Additionally Air Yards is not calculated into the back of the end zone.

    Average Air Yards Differential (AYD)
    Air Yards Differential is calculated by subtracting the passer’s average Intended Air Yards from his average Completed Air Yards. This stat indicates if he is on average attempting deep passes than he on average completes.

    Aggressiveness (AGG%)
    Aggressiveness tracks the amount of passing attempts a quarterback makes that are into tight coverage, where there is a defender within 1 yard or less of the receiver at the time of completion or incompletion. AGG is shown as a % of attempts into tight windows over all passing attempts.
    ______________________________

    Rodgers is getting the ball out quicker, on shorter throws and willing to throw into tighter coverage this year than last. I couldn't break last year down by game but I'd bet a lot of money that he held the ball longer and threw to receivers farther downfield on average the first 10 games than the last 10. That trend has continued into this year.

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    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    The great Packer Offensive Drought of 2015 and 16 was also driven by more than changes to the offseason schedule or film. Receivers were hurt and the depth at WR was sparse. There was no TE and no middle of the field game. Patler will be along shortly to remind us that M3 once said Favre loved throwing into the middle of the field, Rodgers loved going outside. Without a personnel advantage in the middle, most of Rodgers looks go outside, giving the defense an advantage.
    Directional Pass Frequency
    .................................................. .......Left.....Middle....Right
    2016 "Great O Drought" (weeks 1-11)....38%....23%....38%
    2016 "Run the Table" (weeks (12-21).....39%....18%....42%
    2017 so far..........................................42%.. ..21%.....38%

    When the offense struggled, they threw down the middle of the field more often (though less effectively) than since it's returned to higher productivity.

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    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    those directional numbers don't look all that different to me, but there are no confidence intervals so what can I say
    "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

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    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    This turn around has had more to do with McCarthy tightening up the leash (slightly and often temporarily depending on offensive flow) on Rodgers inclination to improvise and the receivers' ability to separate quickly vs. man coverage than any "creativity" he gained, or lack of it previously. He's a creative offensive mind, which was partially what caused some problems during the drought. The innovative "second level" attack is his brainchild, but like all innovations, there are often bumps in the road and adjustments to be made.

    Rodgers and the whole offense benefits from some structure early, and then he can open up the second level attack once they get things going. The full arsenal of healthy receivers makes all the difference too.

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    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    Agreed, which indicates that some mythical middle of the field attack change not only didn't impact the turnaround, but didn't exist in the first place.

  15. #15
    Lunatic Rat HOFer RashanGary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post

    Rodgers and the whole offense benefits from some structure early, and then he can open up the second level attack once they get things going. The full arsenal of healthy receivers makes all the difference too.
    I agree with this.

  16. #16
    The offense does seem to have recovered from the 2015 and early 2016 debacles but it still doesn't feel like it is humming along as it should or did in 2014. ARod is too good for the results we're seeing. It still seems like the home run threat is never there and we're constantly dinking and dunking to get down the field. Admittedly, I'm unable to watch the games as closely these days so I could very well be off base here.

    A theory I don't totally believe, but have considered, is Jordy Nelson is an average #2 right now, and Devante Adams is not a great player. Cobb has the most "athletic" ability but he is still so small.

    Anyway, I do not want to pay Adams big bucks at the end of this year. He never seems to get any separation at all. That is the exact opposite of Nelson and Jennings, who both lived up to their 2nd contracts. They consistently had separation.

  17. #17
    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    Green Bay's offense is ranked 8th in points and 16th in yards having played against the 3rd (Cin.), 9th (Chi), 13th (Atl) and 14th (Sea) ranked defenses so far.

    Falcons and Bengals in particular have gotten after QB's (each rank 3rd with 12) which is usually GB's offensive achilles heal. That's proven out so far this year as well. Rodgers was sacked 13 times in their 3 worst point producing games and only twice when they racked up 35 on the Bears.

    With Guards playing Tackle and UDFA rookies starting on the o-line, I'd say the offense has done pretty well getting in the end zone and should only get better.

    They've been particularly good in the most important situations that drive point production - #1 in the league in Red Zone TD % and #3 in 3rd Down Conversion Rate. They'll win a lot of games if they keep up that situational production - and the defense continues to hold up.

    Individually, I tend to agree with you about Adams from a contract standpoint. He's a good possession guy who can get off the line and fight for balls but a complimentary guy who is fortunate to fit the Packers' and Rodgers' game pretty well. If someone wants to pay up for him like the Vikes did for Jennings, he could easily fall of the cliff harder and faster than Jennings did post-GB.

    Rodgers and the Packers scheme spreads the ball around so much by knowing defensive tendencies, matchups and attacking what the defense gives them rather than targeting any of their guys like most teams do with their 1's, so it can be tough to judge individual production. That said, Football Outsiders has Nelson as the #2 ranked receiver in the league right now. Cobb is #22 and Adams is #24. A couple teams (Rams and Vikes) have their top 2 guys higher than GB's top 2, but no one matches GB's top 3.

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    Legendary Rat HOFer vince's Avatar
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    Over the course of the whole year (good and bad) the more consistently the Packers maintained 11 personnel, the more points they scored.

    2016 11 Personnel Frequency and Scoring by Quarter

    Qtr...11 Freq....Pts./game...NFL Rank
    1.......48%.........5.3.............10th
    2.......61%.........9.1..............3rd
    3.......49%.........4.8..............14th
    4.......50%.........8.5..............4th

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mraynrand View Post
    How about this analogy from basketball. You know the phrase "he can make his own shot" - the better/great players can get open and then have an easier shot. Packer wide receivers lacked this during the drought. Jennings could make his own shot, that is, get open against press man coverage. But he declined/left. Rodgers could do the equivalent with Nelson on sideline outs and comebacks, but when Nelson got injured, both options were gone. I don't think Nelson will ever return to top form, so it's essential to run those other schemes. Or maybe draft a WR who can get open.

    It would be nice if they'd use Bennett up the seam instead of the short outs and 3 yard buttonhooks.
    Rodgers does like to often wait and see if he can make the bigger play and passes on throwing to the open player underneath. I also think Bennett's numbers will improve once our starting tackles are back and he doesn't have to block as much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by call_me_ishmael View Post
    The offense does seem to have recovered from the 2015 and early 2016 debacles but it still doesn't feel like it is humming along as it should or did in 2014. ARod is too good for the results we're seeing. It still seems like the home run threat is never there and we're constantly dinking and dunking to get down the field. Admittedly, I'm unable to watch the games as closely these days so I could very well be off base here.

    A theory I don't totally believe, but have considered, is Jordy Nelson is an average #2 right now, and Devante Adams is not a great player. Cobb has the most "athletic" ability but he is still so small.

    Anyway, I do not want to pay Adams big bucks at the end of this year. He never seems to get any separation at all. That is the exact opposite of Nelson and Jennings, who both lived up to their 2nd contracts. They consistently had separation.
    Really? To me Adams seems like he is better at getting separation than you suggest.

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