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Thread: McCarthy's Offense: McAdoo Edition

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    Right I missed the run after catch on those. But even if we assume that they increased their middle of the field attack when they got their receiving TE back (The data I've seen still doesn't support any change to that effect. If anything it's slightly the opposite.) I don't see how that constitutes some kind of epiphany on McCarthy's part to become more creative and varied with playcalling and/or personnel groupings.

    McCarthy said right from the start when Cook was signed that a TE who can attack the middle of the field is important and he brings that. So we all agree the threat is important. I also agree that it's interesting that they (with Cook at least) didn't actually do it more, perhaps because they continued to have far lower production when they did. It depends on defensive schemes and tendencies.
    1. I think from your numbers that the difference Cook made in 2016 were either routes that ran through the middle, and tied down interior defenders in a serious way (last 6 games Cook was very effective) or the mere presence of a physical specimen who was fast, tall and could catch. Given the results, I assume this is what McCarthy means when he says attack the middle of a D. Its not a scheme nor a pass play, its a general all purpose way to describe a player who can line up on the interior and be a threat in the pass game.

    He did not, as the numbers and route maps show, do the majority of his damage with throws to the middle of the field.

    So I agree McCarthy did not change the offense to feature different routes, or if he did, Rodgers did not throw to those spots. And so for the reason the TE attacking the middle seemed effective is still hard to pin down literally, but we can say two things about it now. The talent at TE is important if its going to work (and they need to be trusted by Rodgers) and by virtue of struggles before Cook, its important to stress the middle of the field in passing because the lesser pass defenders are there. Outside of Cook and Nelson, it wasn't happening during the drought.

    I also think we can say that time in the pocket was important, as one of Cooks most common routes was the slant/flat combo, a safe and fast throw which serves about the same purpose as a dive into the line. It will get you 2-5 yards most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    This is consistent with how the Packers offensive scheme operates (and pretty much always has under McCarthy) to put players in the best position to succeed through preparation, planning and dynamically attacking the defense where they're weakest as opposed to some new creative "scheming" (in your words) for new and more combinations of players and formation so they can throw it to Cook down the middle more by design because he's pretty good. The latter just hasn't and doesn't happen - not since that blew up with Finley one of the many years he got hurt.
    Its clear now for two years that McCarthy has wanted better talent at TE. Whether he is throwing to the middle or attacking interior defenders in the pass game, there is something to this. We will get to the playbook in a second.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    Defenses adjusted to prevent all that. For awhile they succeeded because 1) the Packers committed too much to their "second phase" attack right from the start of games before establishing the fast pace tempo and play style it needs to succeed, and 2) the Packers receivers were unsuccessful in separating from man coverage and/or the QB was more averse to throwing into tighter windows associated with shorter throws.
    I agree with first point, but I think the 'won't throw into tight windows' thing is overrated. Rodgers passes up easy throws to the middle of the field sometimes (not just a recent thing with playbook changes) while waiting for something bigger and tougher to break open.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    Then the Packers adjusted with simpler attack and emphasis on getting into rhythm to establish play style and speed up game tempo to their advantage and enable Rodgers to be more effective at the things he's uniquely good at.
    I definitely agree with this and I think the shorter passing game has served two purposes; as you put it earlier, it a matchup and exploit option determined by opponent or health/ability of roster. It also serves as a check to the pass rush, which is why its been featured this year so much with injuries at Tackle. I am very intrigued by your idea that it also constrains Rodgers, because as this article (and this one) depict, he can still call his Rodger's Offense out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    Maybe McCarthy errs at times by overestimating his guys or expecting too much from them (not a bad flaw if you're a football coach).
    I agree that his belief in his guys is a net positive for the team.

    But I think its indisputable McCarthy has changed his offense not only in a normal evolution, but after the CBA. He said he reduced volume to speed installation. He has claimed that modifying routes to scheme people open was going to cease. Receivers needed to win one on one.

    Personnel group calls have also changed. Think back to the two year rollout of the no-huddle.

    But one thing I ignored (as the original focus was about what was a compare contrast with M3 and McAdoo) was talent outside of the QB. 4 or 5 wides doesn't mean the same thing as they did during the Big 5 era (Jennings/Driver/Jones/Nelson/Martin-Finley). Maybe Allison and Adams step up and Cobb is back to his earlier, healthy level, but that hasn't been the case for a while now.

    More TEs have been used in the past to diversify the offense and they seem to be committed to that direction now two years in a row.

    But talent, as rand pointed out, is probably the biggest factor. And the lack of talent in his depth might have been the constraining factor to his offense as much as opposing defenses adjusting.

    However whether due to injuries, retirements or talent drain, McCarthy has in three different years (Drought Year 1, 2 and 2017) changed his formations to get someone open early against man coverage after struggling mightily to do so earlier.

    And that to me is also a strength. One McAdoo is struggling to match.
    Last edited by pbmax; 10-08-2017 at 11:10 AM.
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  2. #42
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    No, if he had Alex Smith his offense would look very different. It looked different when he had Favre.
    I think Red assumes(he can feel free to correct me):

    1. That Stubby has little to do with Rodger's success
    2. That if and when Rodgers is permanently gone the Packers would stand pat with current QBs like Hundley as long term starter.

  3. #43
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    McAdoo does have OBJ who is like Jennings on steroids. They target him a bunch even though defenses do everything they can to take him away. Still he gets the rock less than 1/4 of the time.

    If Packers have a talent problem NYG have it in spades. The have OBJ and a lot of crap/inexperience. And Manning may be permanently in the shitter (though his numbers are OK so far this year). But he's such a weird duck - he can play like absolute crap for long stretches and then light on fire. Weird group of guys to coach to be sure.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by mraynrand View Post
    McAdoo does have OBJ who is like Jennings on steroids. They target him a bunch even though defenses do everything they can to take him away. Still he gets the rock less than 1/4 of the time.

    If Packers have a talent problem NYG have it in spades. The have OBJ and a lot of crap/inexperience. And Manning may be permanently in the shitter (though his numbers are OK so far this year). But he's such a weird duck - he can play like absolute crap for long stretches and then light on fire. Weird group of guys to coach to be sure.
    And I think in any evaluation, talent is the first thing. You can only be moderately successful without it.

    Coach and scheme are #2.
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  5. #45
    Even deeper into the thicket? The Rodgers offense is alive and well.

    Here are two stories about the play call for Cook's catch on 3rd down: http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-p...-aaron-rodgers

    And Wilde's take: http://host.madison.com/wsj/sports/f...ed1d3f455.html
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  6. #46
    Well, Adams sure looked good today, so IDK. I'm still not sold, but he definitely looked good today.

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