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Thread: Studs And Duds - Packers vs. Bucs

  1. #21
    Barbershop Rat HOFer Pugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wist43 View Post
    No instincts... not a play maker.

    Very pedestrian player.
    If he is pedestrian then why is he ranked 4th in the league in tackles?

    http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...seasonType=REG

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Pugger View Post
    If he is pedestrian then why is he ranked 4th in the league in tackles?

    http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...seasonType=REG
    I think he's pretty good, but. Someone has to make the tackles that others aren't, so...

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Pugger View Post
    If he is pedestrian then why is he ranked 4th in the league in tackles?

    http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...seasonType=REG
    Coz he's making them 5+ yds downfield.

    Like the play I asked max to look at... Ryan will get credited with a tackle on that play - after he gave up a 34 yd catch and run b/c he had no clue what the offense was doing.

    Neither player steps up and fills; both players wait to absorb blockers; both players routinely run themselves out of plays; neither player is a play maker...

    The tape doesn't lie... neither of our ILB's is very good.
    wist

  4. #24
    Sugadaddy Rat HOFer Zool's Avatar
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    Martinez isn't an all-pro but he's a mid level starter. Of course you can do better but you can do a lot worse too.

    Ryan makes a lot of bad decisions and is turned around often. Maybe it's scheme, maybe it's him, or maybe it's both. I think both. The Packers zone is a joke. They haven't covered a tight end in....how long has Capers been around? Crossing routes have been open for a solid decade.
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  5. #25
    Diplomatic Immunity Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zool View Post
    Crossing routes have been open for a solid decade.
    yep. Opposition knows they just have to drag a receiver from one end to the other and eventually he'll be open. No pressure, easy completion.
    "No! No! The Arizona Cardinals have knocked the Vikings out of the playoffs. There are Vikings crying on the field!"

  6. #26
    Barbershop Rat HOFer Pugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zool View Post
    Martinez isn't an all-pro but he's a mid level starter. Of course you can do better but you can do a lot worse too.

    Ryan makes a lot of bad decisions and is turned around often. Maybe it's scheme, maybe it's him, or maybe it's both. I think both. The Packers zone is a joke. They haven't covered a tight end in....how long has Capers been around? Crossing routes have been open for a solid decade.
    Yes, I know wist doesn't much care for our defense but Martinez isn't the as terrible as he is suggesting. He might make some tackles 5 yards late but at least he makes a damn tackle. That can't be said for a number of the others.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    Let's just note something up front: we have drifted from the original point.



    So we are now onto screens. He is a screenshot of the play in the second quarter with 7:12 or so left in the half.

    Ryan peels back straight and does not keep his eyes in the backfield as wist noted and as Martinez and Jones both do. But there is a reason. His zone is immediately threatened by receiver. He's hustling back to cover him.

    The Bucs know this is going to happen which is why they leak the RB out to the weak side of the defense. They have occupied the onside ILB. The offside ILB (Ponch) along with the box safety (Jones) have to cross the field to make a play. Its very well designed. Now Ryan would be well served to not buy the run fake as much and retreat with a backpedal, but he knows there is a receiver headed for his zone and wide open. So he takes care of Job #1 (run), then Job #2 (zone space). Eyes forward would help but it would still be his third key.

    The real culprit is Morgan Burnett who is at first mesmerized by the receiver crossing into Ryan and then takes a baffling angle around the blocker to leave the RB an unimpeded path down the seam. Now Morgan might have been expecting inside support from Ryan, but that is a hell of a position to be in. More likely, as we saw at other times, another Packer should have been prepared to follow the back in coverage since the weak side was outnumbered.

    That would be Martinez likely.

    However this has nothing to do with instincts. Its technique for Ryan and recognition for Martinez. Something younger players will get better at. Or Burnett could have stepped forward instead of run around a block.

    The problem I have is that since King was sidelined, this is the second game were this type of screen action has been very successful. They have to adjust or it will keep happening. Teams are successfully scheming that zone to death right now. The only upside is that if you aren't named Whitehead, they have kept the damage in front of them.


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  8. #28
    Other notes:

    1. Ryan has not turned his back to the LOS. He has turned it to the power side. If there are receivers in adjacent areas to him, he could see them.
    2. Except for a screen on the LOS. Martinez doesn't see this until he sees the throw. Jones can see it because being the farthest away, he has the best angle.

    So could Ryan's technique have been better. Probably. He wants his body turned so he can see that receiver and the QB's release like Martinez is setup.

    The Packers could be playing some kinda matchup zone underneath, where Ryan's job is to follow that receiver. But then someone else fails, like Burnett or Martinez.

    The fact that screens like this have been successful for a few weeks probably means there is something missing in the design of this coverage. And there could be a technique tweak needed for Ryan in coverage.

    But this is not evidence that they are failures or lack instincts. Their run D rank is very good so they aren't two Barnett's always dragging the guy down after five yards.
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  9. #29
    My God, lol... you're ultimate rationalizer.

    Dom is the man for u max... no doubt about that

    P.S. Your breakdown of that play is for shit.
    wist

  10. #30
    Sugadaddy Rat HOFer Zool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    Twitter to the rescue!


    I can't tell which argument you're making here. Martinez and Jones are playing zone while Ryan is looking at and running to cover 1 guy. Maybe I'm a novice but in every scheme I've played and watched, the LBs are responsible for the RBs coming out of the backfield.

    This looks like a classic "DO YOU JOB" fuckup by Ryan. Remember the Hawk and Barnett days, we're back there again.
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  11. #31
    Sugadaddy Rat HOFer Zool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pugger View Post
    Yes, I know wist doesn't much care for our defense but Martinez isn't the as terrible as he is suggesting. He might make some tackles 5 yards late but at least he makes a damn tackle. That can't be said for a number of the others.
    Exactly. A second year guy leading the team in tackles has some decent instincts. Ryan, the 3rd year guy, continually makes the wrong reads. Clay at ILB is such a physical freak that he can read a play wrong and still make the tackle. ILB has been a problem for an awful long time.
    All posts are opinion based unless otherwise noted

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Zool View Post
    I can't tell which argument you're making here. Martinez and Jones are playing zone while Ryan is looking at and running to cover 1 guy. Maybe I'm a novice but in every scheme I've played and watched, the LBs are responsible for the RBs coming out of the backfield.

    This looks like a classic "DO YOU JOB" fuckup by Ryan. Remember the Hawk and Barnett days, we're back there again.
    Crank up ur DVR and just watch the play... Ryan's 1st responsibility was the RB. When he saw it wasn't a run he peeled back.

    The screen devolelops with nary a Packer on the screen.
    wist

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Zool View Post
    I can't tell which argument you're making here. Martinez and Jones are playing zone while Ryan is looking at and running to cover 1 guy. Maybe I'm a novice but in every scheme I've played and watched, the LBs are responsible for the RBs coming out of the backfield.

    This looks like a classic "DO YOU JOB" fuckup by Ryan. Remember the Hawk and Barnett days, we're back there again.
    In a man scheme, they might have the RB, but they are playing zone I believe. At the snap, the Bucs play fake and Ryan, Martinez and Jones all step up, when its clear its a fake they all retreat to a zone as the pic shows.

    Ryan immediately sees the slot guy (might be the TE) moving to middle on a slant or In. He's running to cover him. Wist could be right, if its not a matchup scheme where he takes first inside route and follows, then he should look like Ponch with one eye on QB.

    But there is a worse failure on the play. Burnett is covering the slot and follows no one deep. He retreats a small distance, like he might decide later to follow that inside route OR he is just retreating to help elsewhere since no one is in his zone (outside WR is matched up with outside CB headed deep).

    When the screen develops, Burnett is off the LOS. He has a blocker and RB to contend with. At best, he keeps contain and forces the RB to stay inside, but he doesn't tie up the blocker and he gets nowhere near the RB. Burnett has no one to cover and does nothing on a play to his side. At the very least, he could take the legs out on the blocker. That's what ankle-biter would do just before his concussion evaluation.

    The success of the play can be put this way, there are two receivers in the area here. Jon has one covered. Burnett, Ponch and Jones aren't anywhere near the other.

    If the play call is a true zone, then Jon should not be so concerned with the one guy, he should be side stepping in retreat looking at the backfield.

    But at least he is covering someone, Burnett is closest and does nothing from the slot.
    “Don’t let strippers in your house” says Kokomo gun theft victim after 16 firearms stolen.

  14. #34
    Here is another possible ripple. Remember that TD that Martinez allowed early in the season, where the RB released from the offenses right but then crossed to the left at the LOS and ran toward the flat?

    Announcer at the time and the coaches later said the ILBs (it was Nitro with Ponch and Jones) had to communicate who was going to take the RB if he moved. And if he crossed the formation after the snap, it doesn't matter what side you are on, you follow him. But its better to switch.

    If true in this case, this play makes a hash out of this scheme as it puts one guy in a bad situation with two receivers to check. There has to be a fall back position.

    Or to put it more succinctly, you don't get a 34 yard gain on a screen with only one person out of position.
    “Don’t let strippers in your house” says Kokomo gun theft victim after 16 firearms stolen.

  15. #35
    Neo Rat HOFer Fritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wist43 View Post
    My God, lol... you're ultimate rationalizer.

    Dom is the man for u max... no doubt about that

    P.S. Your breakdown of that play is for shit.

    Your detailed, astute breakdown of the play is very enlightening to someone like me who does not have the complex knowledge of the game you demonstrate here.
    "The Devine era is actually worse than you remember if you go back and look at it."

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  16. #36
    Diplomatic Immunity Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
    Your detailed, astute breakdown of the play is very enlightening to someone like me who does not have the complex knowledge of the game you demonstrate here.
    lol
    "No! No! The Arizona Cardinals have knocked the Vikings out of the playoffs. There are Vikings crying on the field!"

  17. #37
    Also in the vein of who might be at fault for a series of 20+ yard screens, how about this lineup feature?

    The other corners on the 53-man roster are Goodson, Josh Hawkins, Lenzy Pipkins and Donatello Brown, although the Packers used safeties Morgan Burnett and Jermaine Whitehead in the slot in their sub packages last week against Tampa Bay.
    Playing out of position might lead to some interesting breakdowns, don't you think?

    http://host.madison.com/wsj/sports/f...tate%20journal
    “Don’t let strippers in your house” says Kokomo gun theft victim after 16 firearms stolen.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
    Your detailed, astute breakdown of the play is very enlightening to someone like me who does not have the complex knowledge of the game you demonstrate here.
    Yes, I knew if I purrsistid it would only be matter of time before my jeeeanieeus was reckonized
    wist

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by wist43 View Post
    Yes, I knew if I purrsistid it would only be matter of time before my jeeeanieeus was reckonized
    Does the term “cognitive bias” mean anything to you?
    I hate what you have to say but will defend to the death Tex's right to love his own asshole.

  20. #40
    Falcons just ended our season most likely

    We need a small miracle

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