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Thread: Triangle of Authority is Here

  1. #81
    Captain Rat HOFer Smidgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mraynrand View Post
    If performance and record improve I suspect little or no involvement. Might be more mediation right up front setting priorities in FA and the draft.
    Shouldn't that be Gute's job? 100%?
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  2. #82
    Red Devil Rat HOFer gbgary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    Here is an idea: Eliot Wolf was the problem inside?

    They quite literally gave Ball the job title Wolf had the day before. That's a sharp stick in the eye.
    yup. kinda shocked. then they turned around and said at the presser they were hoping he stay. lol

  3. #83
    You had to figure that whoever didn't get the job between Gutekunst and Wolf would most likely be leaving. There is no great surprise here.

  4. #84
    Senior Rat HOFer Carolina_Packer's Avatar
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    As for the new structure, someone mentioned that there are a handful of teams that have their front office structured in a similar way. Possible that Murphy wanted to structure his role like that of a traditional team-owner in the NFL? I hope he doesn't become as ever-present and overbearing as Jerry Jones, but I don't see Murphy as a media hound.

    I know we are not used to the structure, but the real question is, what will it take for it to work well?
    "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

  5. #85
    Captain Rat HOFer Smidgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolina_Packer View Post
    As for the new structure, someone mentioned that there are a handful of teams that have their front office structured in a similar way. Possible that Murphy wanted to structure his role like that of a traditional team-owner in the NFL? I hope he doesn't become as ever-present and overbearing as Jerry Jones, but I don't see Murphy as a media hound.

    I know we are not used to the structure, but the real question is, what will it take for it to work well?
    M3 to defer to the GM and not even challenge his acquisition and roster decisions. Coaches are not personnel experts.
    No longer the member of any fan clubs. I'm tired of jinxing players out of the league and into obscurity.

  6. #86
    Red Devil Rat HOFer gbgary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smidgeon View Post
    M3 to defer to the GM and not even challenge his acquisition and roster decisions. Coaches are not personnel experts.
    when it comes to the draft yes...but in FA i think his input could be of real value. MM watches tons of game tape and he sees, has to game plan, against all those guys. it's his team. other than the money side, i think MM's opinion should carry the most weight.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by gbgary View Post
    when it comes to the draft yes...but in FA i think his input could be of real value. MM watches tons of game tape and he sees, has to game plan, against all those guys. it's his team. other than the money side, i think MM's opinion should carry the most weight.
    There is a difference between evaluating game tape for game planning and for personnel evaluation. McCarthy does the former, not the latter.

    His input on his roster and position needs should carry weight, but never be the final decision by itself.
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  8. #88
    Moose Rat HOFer woodbuck27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbgary View Post
    yup. kinda shocked. then they turned around and said at the presser they were hoping he stay. lol
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  9. #89
    Moose Rat HOFer woodbuck27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    There is a difference between evaluating game tape for game planning and for personnel evaluation. McCarthy does the former, not the latter.

    His input on his roster and position needs should carry weight, but never be the final decision by itself.
    Then there is Video evidence of incredible talent that is obvious and makes your mouth water even if you never saw a Pro Football game:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfMF-uBQGAI

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  10. #90
    Red Devil Rat HOFer gbgary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    There is a difference between evaluating game tape for game planning and for personnel evaluation. McCarthy does the former, not the latter.

    His input on his roster and position needs should carry weight, but never be the final decision by itself.
    obviously but he sees the speed, athleticism, instincts, etc in that game tape. i didn't say final decision.

  11. #91
    Roadkill Rat HOFer mraynrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smidgeon View Post
    Shouldn't that be Gute's job? 100%?
    That's the way I'd prefer it. But I think Murphy may just help mediate between the other 3. I don't see him pushing players or strategy unless someone asks him for advice - but why would they? The only finance I see him getting involved in are any big ticket items, like Rodgers' contract or a premier free agent with lots of guaranteed money. And he's be involved anyway, so he could defend it publicly and explain to the board.

    I note that I could be totally wrong - Murphy may be trying to innervate the organization. I think that would be bad, but we don't know yet.
    "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

  12. #92
    Ok, from reading a bit more on this, the structure looks to be:
    Gute = complete control over the roster (90 and 53)
    Ball = control of equipment, video, family affairs, PR, and negotiates contracts (essentially what he's been doing, except that it is formalized and not delegated).

    Any issue where there is conflict between Gute and Ball about signing a player, Gute gets the call.

    Murphy = control over hiring / firing Gute, Ball, and MM.

    Advantages - Removing any one of them for poor performance does not require removing another, or all of them. President is more in tune with all aspects of the organization. GM can focus on players.
    Disadvantages - Reduced GM authority compared to previous, possibilities of Gute, MM, and Ball playing maneuvering against each other.

    If things go well, nobody will know the difference. If things go badly, it gives a chance for Murphy to decide who is at fault. The problem will be that it can easily devolve to three guys trying to survive at the expense of one or both of the others, with a total breakdown in trust.
    Fire Murphy, Gute, MLF, Barry, Senavich, etc!

  13. #93
    Postal Rat HOFer Joemailman's Avatar
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    What I like about the new arrangement is that it might make MM more accountable. Unlike some here, I think he's been TOO loyal to some of his coaches. It took him too long to fire both Slocum and Capers. There wasn't any pressure on him to make a move though because of his relationship with TT. Now if he has an underachieving coordinator, He might have to discuss it with Murphy. Murphy was out of the loop before. I also believe Murphy knows more about about what makes a successful football operation than just about all of the owners. He played for Joe Gibbs' Redskins when they were going to Super Bowls. This is not a Jimmy Haslam or Dan Snyder situation.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Joemailman View Post
    What I like about the new arrangement is that it might make MM more accountable. Unlike some here, I think he's been TOO loyal to some of his coaches. It took him too long to fire both Slocum and Capers. There wasn't any pressure on him to make a move though because of his relationship with TT. Now if he has an underachieving coordinator, He might have to discuss it with Murphy. Murphy was out of the loop before. I also believe Murphy knows more about about what makes a successful football operation than just about all of the owners. He played for Joe Gibbs' Redskins when they were going to Super Bowls. This is not a Jimmy Haslam or Dan Snyder situation.
    Yeah, but he consulted Charlie Casserly, who was a decidedly mixed bag as GM.

    There needs to be separation between football and business (outside of the cap and cash budget for players) and between upper management and football. Murphy has bent two walls Harlan put up for a reason. One was the CEO's direct involvement in football decisions (Parins' model). The other is the Exec Committee interfering in football operations. Murphy can choose to avoid the former by being wise and restrained. But the EC can force him to intervene as in the latter because he is their employee and he has breached the wall already for the coach, so it will be harder to refuse.

    If they win, no one will care. That is true if they governed by Ouija board. But if they have tough times, this structure invites more silos, not less, and internecine warfare between departments that instead of being ignored by Thompson, will be brought to Murphy's door to fix. Any business student can tell you the silo problem cannot be solved by putting management in a room once a week.

    I suspect that the communication issues largely revolved around the "people are not taking me seriously" or "people are not listening to me" variety and centered around Ted.

    1. He won't take cues from Pro Personnel about FA
    2. He gives the coaches players other than those they prefer
    3. Coaches take the players and play them out of position

    All of this is normal in any football organization. No one is ever completely happy. Thompson kept a lid on it internally and publicly. Murphy has now given it a weekly meeting. Crediting Rand, Murphy did address this directly and took the responsibility himself, so he has not abandoned the staff to consensus building alone.
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Joemailman View Post
    What I like about the new arrangement is that it might make MM more accountable. Unlike some here, I think he's been TOO loyal to some of his coaches. It took him too long to fire both Slocum and Capers. There wasn't any pressure on him to make a move though because of his relationship with TT. Now if he has an underachieving coordinator, He might have to discuss it with Murphy. Murphy was out of the loop before. I also believe Murphy knows more about about what makes a successful football operation than just about all of the owners. He played for Joe Gibbs' Redskins when they were going to Super Bowls. This is not a Jimmy Haslam or Dan Snyder situation.
    Maybe. But the two times he has voluntarily changed his staff came after his two long seasons (other than ST coordinators). He has been pretty stiff necked about it otherwise. Will Murphy actually put his foot down and intervene or will Stubby be feeling his oats and wait it out?
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  16. #96
    Postal Rat HOFer Joemailman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbmax View Post
    Maybe. But the two times he has voluntarily changed his staff came after his two long seasons (other than ST coordinators). He has been pretty stiff necked about it otherwise. Will Murphy actually put his foot down and intervene or will Stubby be feeling his oats and wait it out?
    He'll make him an offer he can't refuse.

  17. #97
    Lunatic Rat HOFer RashanGary's Avatar
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    Im ok with it. All of these guys work well together. And Murphy seems to have confidence in his ability to promote, encourage and inspire better communication. Ultimately it’s his reputation and legacy at stake, so him taking command..... I respect it. Now let’s see if he can raise the bar.

  18. #98
    Its also possible that once Rodgers signs, M3 will be on the world's shortest lease. Murphy might not be happy to be put on this spot.
    Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by MadScientist View Post
    Ok, from reading a bit more on this, the structure looks to be:
    Gute = complete control over the roster (90 and 53)
    Ball = control of equipment, video, family affairs, PR, and negotiates contracts (essentially what he's been doing, except that it is formalized and not delegated).

    Any issue where there is conflict between Gute and Ball about signing a player, Gute gets the call.

    Murphy = control over hiring / firing Gute, Ball, and MM.

    Advantages - Removing any one of them for poor performance does not require removing another, or all of them. President is more in tune with all aspects of the organization. GM can focus on players.
    Disadvantages - Reduced GM authority compared to previous, possibilities of Gute, MM, and Ball playing maneuvering against each other.

    If things go well, nobody will know the difference. If things go badly, it gives a chance for Murphy to decide who is at fault. The problem will be that it can easily devolve to three guys trying to survive at the expense of one or both of the others, with a total breakdown in trust.
    Excellent Post.

    Logically, this is the way things should be, and we can only hope what should be actually is.
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  20. #100
    Moose Rat HOFer woodbuck27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbgary View Post
    yup. kinda shocked. then they turned around and said at the presser they were hoping he stay. lol
    TRUTH from the outset would have been the proper start and dismissing Ted Thompson. He should have been outright and simply dismissed.

    " Thanks Ted and inside this envelope is a very HUGE $Cheque$, a token of our appreciation."

    This is 'a no brainer':

    Packer Head Coach Mike McCarthy had to be kept completely out of the LOOP and the actual Process of naming a NEW Packer GM.

    As it really was and 1265 Lombardi Avenue:

    The Packers Front Office needed to hire the very BEST PR Person in North America.

    As the facts are now being revealed. 1265 Lombardi Avenue: They've made, may then be expected to make more blunders and absolute fools of themselves.

    It's a 'too common sideshow act'. They are now creating. Personalities don't change easily. They're embarrassing PACKER NATION.

    These Guy's could have handled it better. They broke the Cardinal Rule and Good Management. The person who is mainly to blame is obviously Green Bay Packer President and CEO Mark Murphy. ThatGuy it seems didn't have a real clue and what was going on with Ted Thompson and that's inexcusable. Ted Thompson needed to be dealt with years ago.

    Last edited by woodbuck27; 01-10-2018 at 11:08 PM.
    ** Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner-Up and 3 X 3rd place.
    ** To download Jesus Loves Me ring tones, you'll need a cell phone mame
    ** If God doesn't fish, play poker or pull for " the Packers ", exactly what does HE do with his buds?
    ** Rather than love, money or fame - give me TRUTH: Henry D. Thoreau

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