Triangle of Authority is Here

[3irty1]

The "communication" in this instance reads like an excuse more than an actual problem.

Ted was successful football czar for a long time and was pretty hands off with his guys. When the throne went up for grabs Ted's subordinates all scramble for a piece of the empire. Had MM canned Capers years ago, he'd probably be the new czar. The GM might be working for him as in New England. But as it is he's on thin ice himself and there is whatever is true about his relationship with Russ Ball to consider as well. The triangle is the solution that keeps a scout in Ted's chair and keeps all these divas who were subordinate to Ted in the building without Ted. The real tradeoff is a single source of leadership for interchangeable parts. You can now cleanly fire the GM or coach without having to fire both.

[pbmax]

The most disappointing thing with Murphy's change is that when asked point blank about what he would be managing with the head coach, he drew a blank.

Then said game plans.

It seems ill-considered, to say the least. Harlan said he wanted the Executive Committee out of the GM's ear and allow him to make decisions based on his expertise, not the business community's. Since Murphy is not an owner (which is bad enough) but an employee, this seems to be going back to a bad model.

[mraynrand]

I see Murphy’s non-answer more as evidence that he won’t be that involved. More like a boss who will poke his head in the door a little more often to check that things are going OK. Maybe he’ll schedule a leadership retreat and have some trust falls, but mostly he’ll be hands off except ‘facilitating communication’ I think.

[mraynrand]

If performance and record improve I suspect little or no involvement. Might be more mediation right up front setting priorities in FA and the draft.

[Smidgeon]

If performance and record improve I suspect little or no involvement. Might be more mediation right up front setting priorities in FA and the draft.

Shouldn't that be Gute's job? 100%?

[mraynrand]

Shouldn't that be Gute's job? 100%?

That's the way I'd prefer it. But I think Murphy may just help mediate between the other 3. I don't see him pushing players or strategy unless someone asks him for advice - but why would they? The only finance I see him getting involved in are any big ticket items, like Rodgers' contract or a premier free agent with lots of guaranteed money. And he's be involved anyway, so he could defend it publicly and explain to the board.

I note that I could be totally wrong - Murphy may be trying to innervate the organization. I think that would be bad, but we don't know yet.

[woodbuck27]

Pete Dougherty @PeteDougherty

One big piece of news in Packers' official announcement of Brian Gutekunst promotion to GM: He, Russ Ball & coach Mike McCarthy will all report directly to Mark Murphy. In previous setup going back to late 1991, only the GM reported to team president.


Its been a good run.

Doesn't that structure make President and CEO Mark Murphy now also the REAL GENERAL MANAGER of the Green Bay Packers Football Operations?

What REAL POWER does gm Brian Gutekunst or Bee Gee really have now when he's positioned laterally with the Head Coach of the Green Bay Packers or Mike MCcarthy.

If MM wants to whine for whatever ! Flat out 'complain he's failing', because of whatever ! He can do so bypassing Bee Gee by going directly to Mark Murphy.

That's a recipe for a clear and utter disaster.

That's in all likelihood going to create an obvious Power Struggle between MIke McCarthy and Brian Gutekunst. That will mean if that 'in fact comes to fruition', someone or both have to go !

What's Mark Murphy thinking! This organizational move is a lot more than using Mike McCarthy, as a mere consult, in a Process and choosing a Franchise GM. This move cannot Please Bee Gee if he's a strong Leader. A strong Leader isn't going to appreciate any underling going around and over top of him with anything.

The Packer GM used to be the Packer HC's BOSS.

Going around (gm) Brian Gutekunst to the TOP (Mark Murphy), with issues MM might have, is a real possibility.

Is Mark Murphy prepared for the Fall Out and this?

Mark Murphy had to make a correction for Ted Thompson and clear evidence he hasn't been fit to be the Packer GM for some 2-3 Seasons (at least). Was TT ever fit in terms of being a GM and all in winning Super Bowls?!

Today that's 'a Moot Question', as what was and wasn't done is in Packer Nations past.

What is an issue now:

Mark Murphy taking a mess and turning it into 'a GREATER MESS'?

Now I'll (with great interest), read the remainder of this thread to see what other Packerrats read into this alarming news.

This Thread: It's suddenly HOT on Packerrats.

[Teamcheez1]

You had to figure that whoever didn't get the job between Gutekunst and Wolf would most likely be leaving. There is no great surprise here.

[Carolina_Packer]

As for the new structure, someone mentioned that there are a handful of teams that have their front office structured in a similar way. Possible that Murphy wanted to structure his role like that of a traditional team-owner in the NFL? I hope he doesn't become as ever-present and overbearing as Jerry Jones, but I don't see Murphy as a media hound.

I know we are not used to the structure, but the real question is, what will it take for it to work well?

[Smidgeon]

As for the new structure, someone mentioned that there are a handful of teams that have their front office structured in a similar way. Possible that Murphy wanted to structure his role like that of a traditional team-owner in the NFL? I hope he doesn't become as ever-present and overbearing as Jerry Jones, but I don't see Murphy as a media hound.

I know we are not used to the structure, but the real question is, what will it take for it to work well?

M3 to defer to the GM and not even challenge his acquisition and roster decisions. Coaches are not personnel experts.

[gbgary]

M3 to defer to the GM and not even challenge his acquisition and roster decisions. Coaches are not personnel experts.

when it comes to the draft yes...but in FA i think his input could be of real value. MM watches tons of game tape and he sees, has to game plan, against all those guys. it's his team. other than the money side, i think MM's opinion should carry the most weight.

[pbmax]

when it comes to the draft yes...but in FA i think his input could be of real value. MM watches tons of game tape and he sees, has to game plan, against all those guys. it's his team. other than the money side, i think MM's opinion should carry the most weight.

There is a difference between evaluating game tape for game planning and for personnel evaluation. McCarthy does the former, not the latter.

His input on his roster and position needs should carry weight, but never be the final decision by itself.

[woodbuck27]

There is a difference between evaluating game tape for game planning and for personnel evaluation. McCarthy does the former, not the latter.

His input on his roster and position needs should carry weight, but never be the final decision by itself.

Then there is Video evidence of incredible talent that is obvious and makes your mouth water even if you never saw a Pro Football game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfMF-uBQGAI

Saquon Barkley Career Highlights

[gbgary]

There is a difference between evaluating game tape for game planning and for personnel evaluation. McCarthy does the former, not the latter.

His input on his roster and position needs should carry weight, but never be the final decision by itself.

obviously but he sees the speed, athleticism, instincts, etc in that game tape. i didn't say final decision.

[MadScientist]

Ok, from reading a bit more on this, the structure looks to be:
Gute = complete control over the roster (90 and 53)
Ball = control of equipment, video, family affairs, PR, and negotiates contracts (essentially what he's been doing, except that it is formalized and not delegated).

Any issue where there is conflict between Gute and Ball about signing a player, Gute gets the call.

Murphy = control over hiring / firing Gute, Ball, and MM.

Advantages - Removing any one of them for poor performance does not require removing another, or all of them. President is more in tune with all aspects of the organization. GM can focus on players.
Disadvantages - Reduced GM authority compared to previous, possibilities of Gute, MM, and Ball playing maneuvering against each other.

If things go well, nobody will know the difference. If things go badly, it gives a chance for Murphy to decide who is at fault. The problem will be that it can easily devolve to three guys trying to survive at the expense of one or both of the others, with a total breakdown in trust.

[texaspackerbacker]

Ok, from reading a bit more on this, the structure looks to be:
Gute = complete control over the roster (90 and 53)
Ball = control of equipment, video, family affairs, PR, and negotiates contracts (essentially what he's been doing, except that it is formalized and not delegated).

Any issue where there is conflict between Gute and Ball about signing a player, Gute gets the call.

Murphy = control over hiring / firing Gute, Ball, and MM.

Advantages - Removing any one of them for poor performance does not require removing another, or all of them. President is more in tune with all aspects of the organization. GM can focus on players.
Disadvantages - Reduced GM authority compared to previous, possibilities of Gute, MM, and Ball playing maneuvering against each other.

If things go well, nobody will know the difference. If things go badly, it gives a chance for Murphy to decide who is at fault. The problem will be that it can easily devolve to three guys trying to survive at the expense of one or both of the others, with a total breakdown in trust.

Excellent Post.

Logically, this is the way things should be, and we can only hope what should be actually is.

[Joemailman]

What I like about the new arrangement is that it might make MM more accountable. Unlike some here, I think he's been TOO loyal to some of his coaches. It took him too long to fire both Slocum and Capers. There wasn't any pressure on him to make a move though because of his relationship with TT. Now if he has an underachieving coordinator, He might have to discuss it with Murphy. Murphy was out of the loop before. I also believe Murphy knows more about about what makes a successful football operation than just about all of the owners. He played for Joe Gibbs' Redskins when they were going to Super Bowls. This is not a Jimmy Haslam or Dan Snyder situation.

[pbmax]

What I like about the new arrangement is that it might make MM more accountable. Unlike some here, I think he's been TOO loyal to some of his coaches. It took him too long to fire both Slocum and Capers. There wasn't any pressure on him to make a move though because of his relationship with TT. Now if he has an underachieving coordinator, He might have to discuss it with Murphy. Murphy was out of the loop before. I also believe Murphy knows more about about what makes a successful football operation than just about all of the owners. He played for Joe Gibbs' Redskins when they were going to Super Bowls. This is not a Jimmy Haslam or Dan Snyder situation.

Yeah, but he consulted Charlie Casserly, who was a decidedly mixed bag as GM.

There needs to be separation between football and business (outside of the cap and cash budget for players) and between upper management and football. Murphy has bent two walls Harlan put up for a reason. One was the CEO's direct involvement in football decisions (Parins' model). The other is the Exec Committee interfering in football operations. Murphy can choose to avoid the former by being wise and restrained. But the EC can force him to intervene as in the latter because he is their employee and he has breached the wall already for the coach, so it will be harder to refuse.

If they win, no one will care. That is true if they governed by Ouija board. But if they have tough times, this structure invites more silos, not less, and internecine warfare between departments that instead of being ignored by Thompson, will be brought to Murphy's door to fix. Any business student can tell you the silo problem cannot be solved by putting management in a room once a week.

I suspect that the communication issues largely revolved around the "people are not taking me seriously" or "people are not listening to me" variety and centered around Ted.

1. He won't take cues from Pro Personnel about FA
2. He gives the coaches players other than those they prefer
3. Coaches take the players and play them out of position

All of this is normal in any football organization. No one is ever completely happy. Thompson kept a lid on it internally and publicly. Murphy has now given it a weekly meeting. Crediting Rand, Murphy did address this directly and took the responsibility himself, so he has not abandoned the staff to consensus building alone.

[pbmax]

What I like about the new arrangement is that it might make MM more accountable. Unlike some here, I think he's been TOO loyal to some of his coaches. It took him too long to fire both Slocum and Capers. There wasn't any pressure on him to make a move though because of his relationship with TT. Now if he has an underachieving coordinator, He might have to discuss it with Murphy. Murphy was out of the loop before. I also believe Murphy knows more about about what makes a successful football operation than just about all of the owners. He played for Joe Gibbs' Redskins when they were going to Super Bowls. This is not a Jimmy Haslam or Dan Snyder situation.

Maybe. But the two times he has voluntarily changed his staff came after his two long seasons (other than ST coordinators). He has been pretty stiff necked about it otherwise. Will Murphy actually put his foot down and intervene or will Stubby be feeling his oats and wait it out?

[Joemailman]

Maybe. But the two times he has voluntarily changed his staff came after his two long seasons (other than ST coordinators). He has been pretty stiff necked about it otherwise. Will Murphy actually put his foot down and intervene or will Stubby be feeling his oats and wait it out?

He'll make him an offer he can't refuse.