Cap affect of paying as you go vs pushing out and having dead space

[sharpe1027]

Here’s a very realistic way of describing in a metaphor.


If you have the cap hits later, you’ll have to cut your arm off later.

But instead of paying later, you just cut your arm off now. And what you’re saying is since you already cut your arm off, you’re winning because you don’t have to cut it off later.

You paid 40 mil. I paid 40 mil. No ones getting out of that guarantee with both arms. Sorry man.

Bahk would have been cut or traded already if not for the cap situation. That means we keep a broken player in the roster for one to two years of paying the nonguarantee portion of his contract because cutting him makes no sense from a cap perspective. We end up paying more overall and more cap hit overall.

[RashanGary]

Bahk would have been cut or traded already if not for the cap situation. That means we keep a broken player in the roster for one to two years of paying the nonguarantee portion of his contract because cutting him makes no sense from a cap perspective. We end up paying more overall and more cap hit overall.

The Packers signed David Baktiari to a 4 year 91 million dollar deal with 62M fully guaranteed. Whether you used signing bonuses or guaranteed roster bonuses, it’s still fully guaranteed.

Here’s how a front loaded deal with 62M guaranteed would look. And we HAVE TO INCLUDE THE GUARANTEED. That’s why he signed. There’s no way out of that.

20M signing bonus
42M total guaranteed roster bonuses
62M guarantees between the two types of bonuses
29M in non guaranteed base salaries
91M total

Year 1 - 1M base - 16M roster bonus paid at day 1 league year but fully guaranteed at signing (22M cap hit)
Year 2 - 1M base - 16M roster bonus paid on day 1 league year but fully guaranteed on signing (22M cap hit)
Year 3 - 11M base - 10M roster bound paid on day 1 league year but fully guaranteed on signing (26M cap hit)
Year 4 - 16M base - (21M cap hit)


No matter how you structure 62M of guarantees you still can’t cut him or all the guarantees accelerate. Once you decided you wanted David Bakhtiari, you decided you would pay a lot of guarantees and no matter how you structured it, you’re screwed if he has a career ender.

The real problem was the guarantees, not the later cap hits. There’s no way to guarantee 62M without paying 62M when you cut the guy. Draw me up a simple example where that money doesn’t accelerate when you cut him. Make it fully guaranteed and then don’t pay him. I want to see how you guarantee 62 and then don’t pay it because you cut him. I’ve never seen that .

[RashanGary]

If we’re just drawing up contracts without guaranteeing anything I would do this

1M base year 1
1M base year 2
1M base year 3
And
88M base year 4

That way if he gets injured I only pay him 1M. And that way I can just cut him after year 3. It’s much better to guarantee nothing and backload like that. And since it’s not a negotiation, we just do whatever we want, this is much safer. If he doesn’t get injured i’d restructure and pay him 1M per year for another 4 years.

[bobblehead]

The Packers signed David Baktiari to a 4 year 91 million dollar deal with 62M fully guaranteed. Whether you used signing bonuses or guaranteed roster bonuses, it’s still fully guaranteed.

Here’s how a front loaded deal with 62M guaranteed would look. And we HAVE TO INCLUDE THE GUARANTEED. That’s why he signed. There’s no way out of that.

20M signing bonus
42M total guaranteed roster bonuses
62M guarantees between the two types of bonuses
29M in non guaranteed base salaries
91M total

Year 1 - 1M base - 16M roster bonus paid at day 1 league year but fully guaranteed at signing (22M cap hit)
Year 2 - 1M base - 16M roster bonus paid on day 1 league year but fully guaranteed on signing (22M cap hit)
Year 3 - 11M base - 10M roster bound paid on day 1 league year but fully guaranteed on signing (26M cap hit)
Year 4 - 16M base - (21M cap hit)


No matter how you structure 62M of guarantees you still can’t cut him or all the guarantees accelerate. Once you decided you wanted David Bakhtiari, you decided you would pay a lot of guarantees and no matter how you structured it, you’re screwed if he has a career ender.

The real problem was the guarantees, not the later cap hits. There’s no way to guarantee 62M without paying 62M when you cut the guy. Draw me up a simple example where that money doesn’t accelerate when you cut him. Make it fully guaranteed and then don’t pay him. I want to see how you guarantee 62 and then don’t pay it because you cut him. I’ve never seen that .

All that WASN'T locked in when he signed. What happened is that each year Gutes guaranteed most of his base which converted it to bonus and stretched it over the remaining years. He did this because we were in cap hell and he needed to kick it down the road more. Now, in the final year of the deal the only way to kick it would be adding void years, which if I understand it, the player needs to agree to, and Bak wouldn't. Thus, all the coin we paid him wasn't "paid for" against the cap yet. Now is the time of reckoning.

[run pMc]

All that WASN'T locked in when he signed. What happened is that each year Gutes guaranteed most of his base which converted it to bonus and stretched it over the remaining years. He did this because we were in cap hell and he needed to kick it down the road more. Now, in the final year of the deal the only way to kick it would be adding void years, which if I understand it, the player needs to agree to, and Bak wouldn't. Thus, all the coin we paid him wasn't "paid for" against the cap yet. Now is the time of reckoning.

Agree. Converting salary to bonus is borrowing against future cap space.

As for this:
20M signing bonus
42M total guaranteed roster bonuses
62M guarantees between the two types of bonuses

those roster bonuses are NOT guaranteed if you aren't on the roster. Usually it's paid on the first day of the new season in March (or third or some other early day in the new season) and all it does is make sure that player gets that money if they get cut. It's effectively guaranteed salary.

[bobblehead]

Agree. Converting salary to bonus is borrowing against future cap space.

As for this:
20M signing bonus
42M total guaranteed roster bonuses
62M guarantees between the two types of bonuses

those roster bonuses are NOT guaranteed if you aren't on the roster. Usually it's paid on the first day of the new season in March (or third or some other early day in the new season) and all it does is make sure that player gets that money if they get cut. It's effectively guaranteed salary.

Right, but my point was that the contract wasn't written that way. The salary was converted after we decided we were keeping him for another year. Since vets are guaranteed on day one of the season it only changed the accounting, not the reality.

[sharpe1027]

Right, but my point was that the contract wasn't written that way. The salary was converted after we decided we were keeping him for another year. Since vets are guaranteed on day one of the season it only changed the accounting, not the reality.

The difference comes into play is subsequent years where if they didn't push the cap forward they might be able to trade or cut a player and not to take a huge cap hit. That can end up keeping a player a year or two longer and costing more overall.

[Bretsky]

All that WASN'T locked in when he signed. What happened is that each year Gutes guaranteed most of his base which converted it to bonus and stretched it over the remaining years. He did this because we were in cap hell and he needed to kick it down the road more. Now, in the final year of the deal the only way to kick it would be adding void years, which if I understand it, the player needs to agree to, and Bak wouldn't. Thus, all the coin we paid him wasn't "paid for" against the cap yet. Now is the time of reckoning.

Gute went to Back and tried to restructure

Back was looking out for his best interests (I kinda understand that, but on the other hand we kinda got screwed on this deal so it would have been nice if he would have considered that)


GOOD BYE DB.

[Frozen Tundra]

Gute went to Back and tried to restructure

Back was looking out for his best interests (I kinda understand that, but on the other hand we kinda got screwed on this deal so it would have been nice if he would have considered that)

Bak's a pretty smart guy, and so is his agent. I'm not sure exactly who reps him, but I do know he's signed with Athletes First, which is the top agency in the NFL. And between DB and his agent, they've consistently drafted a very player-friendly contract at every negotiation, always designed to look out for his best interests and specifically protect him being left high and dry at the end of his career like so many OL end up. Just like what we see happening now.

I don't know if I'd call it "getting screwed", but we sure got the short end of the stick at this stage. Gutekunst knew what he was agreeing to, and decided it was in the team's best interests. Bakhtiari's agent had a job to do, and drove some very hard bargains because he was in a position of strength. Unfortunately, that just happens sometimes.

But at the same time, I would like to hope that David might be willing to work something out with Green Bay to help them ease the pain a bit. Even if it just means just doing something that might make it easier to trade him.

[Bretsky]

Bak's a pretty smart guy, and so is his agent. I'm not sure exactly who reps him, but I do know he's signed with Athletes First, which is the top agency in the NFL. And between DB and his agent, they've consistently drafted a very player-friendly contract at every negotiation, always designed to look out for his best interests and specifically protect him being left high and dry at the end of his career like so many OL end up. Just like what we see happening now.

I don't know if I'd call it "getting screwed", but we sure got the short end of the stick at this stage. Gutekunst knew what he was agreeing to, and decided it was in the team's best interests. Bakhtiari's agent had a job to do, and drove some very hard bargains because he was in a position of strength. Unfortunately, that just happens sometimes.

But at the same time, I would like to hope that David might be willing to work something out with Green Bay to help them ease the pain a bit. Even if it just means just doing something that might make it easier to trade him.

He's done nothing to make me believe he would ever do GB a favor.

As is they release, him, and he gets to pick and choose where he goes

[Joemailman]

He's done nothing to make me believe he would ever do GB a favor.

As is they release, him, and he gets to pick and choose where he goes

Agreed. Don't think his good buddy Arod will encourage him to take less money to help out Gute.

[bobblehead]

Bak's a pretty smart guy, and so is his agent. I'm not sure exactly who reps him, but I do know he's signed with Athletes First, which is the top agency in the NFL. And between DB and his agent, they've consistently drafted a very player-friendly contract at every negotiation, always designed to look out for his best interests and specifically protect him being left high and dry at the end of his career like so many OL end up. Just like what we see happening now.

I don't know if I'd call it "getting screwed", but we sure got the short end of the stick at this stage. Gutekunst knew what he was agreeing to, and decided it was in the team's best interests. Bakhtiari's agent had a job to do, and drove some very hard bargains because he was in a position of strength. Unfortunately, that just happens sometimes.

But at the same time, I would like to hope that David might be willing to work something out with Green Bay to help them ease the pain a bit. Even if it just means just doing something that might make it easier to trade him.

I think the deal was fair to both team and player. The problem came when Bak couldn't get healthy and they kept deciding "one more year" of waiting was the answer. Also, they were in cap hell and moving on would have been a problem because of the overall cap situation (which Tex and APB insist wasn't real). Because we were in cap hell, it would have been near impossible to cut him. That wasn't bak's fault, nor was it a bad contract. The overall situation of getting into cap hell was the problem, and the belief that he would be fine if we just give it more time.

[call_me_ishmael]

All that WASN'T locked in when he signed. What happened is that each year Gutes guaranteed most of his base which converted it to bonus and stretched it over the remaining years. He did this because we were in cap hell and he needed to kick it down the road more. Now, in the final year of the deal the only way to kick it would be adding void years, which if I understand it, the player needs to agree to, and Bak wouldn't. Thus, all the coin we paid him wasn't "paid for" against the cap yet. Now is the time of reckoning.

Yep, and roster bonuses are rarely guaranteed. Josh Allen is the only player I can recall seeing it where they accelerate if he's cut. Bak's deal was good at the time but Packers had to alter it to account for loading up to make a run. Nobody would care about this contract if we won it all. It's just time to move on. He's gonna get cut and that will be fine for him. Players should try to get as much as possible just as all workers should. Lifts all boats.

[texaspackerbacker]

Yep, and roster bonuses are rarely guaranteed. Josh Allen is the only player I can recall seeing it where they accelerate if he's cut. Bak's deal was good at the time but Packers had to alter it to account for loading up to make a run. Nobody would care about this contract if we won it all. It's just time to move on. He's gonna get cut and that will be fine for him. Players should try to get as much as possible just as all workers should. Lifts all boats.

CMI, how is bonus money ever NOT guaranteed? It's paid. It's not gonna be given back short of some kind of very off-the-wall lawsuit. Did you mean salaries are rarely guaranteed - beyond the current year anyway?

bobblehead, Packer roster strength plus recent events, primarily the huge cap increase, strongly support what APB and I have always said. How are you still hanging on to the bogus crap that the cap is such a bogeyman?

[sharpe1027]

CMI, how is bonus money ever NOT guaranteed? It's paid. It's not gonna be given back short of some kind of very off-the-wall lawsuit. Did you mean salaries are rarely guaranteed - beyond the current year anyway?

bobblehead, Packer roster strength plus recent events, primarily the huge cap increase, strongly support what APB and I have always said. How are you still hanging on to the bogus crap that the cap is such a bogeyman?

You can cut the player before the roster bonus is due and not pay it.

[bobblehead]

CMI, how is bonus money ever NOT guaranteed? It's paid. It's not gonna be given back short of some kind of very off-the-wall lawsuit. Did you mean salaries are rarely guaranteed - beyond the current year anyway?

bobblehead, Packer roster strength plus recent events, primarily the huge cap increase, strongly support what APB and I have always said. How are you still hanging on to the bogus crap that the cap is such a bogeyman?

Because 1) David Bacteria is still a packer and b) He hasn't played any significant snaps in years. Ergo, the cap fucked us into a bad situation and we probably lost the chance to sign either our own, or other FAs because of it.