Cap affect of paying as you go vs pushing out and having dead space

[sharpe1027]

I think Bahk's contract was restructured to convert a large roster bonus to a signing bonus. If they hadn't done that, we'd pay him basically the same amount through this year, but we could cut him with much less dead cap. We chose a contract with the same guaranteed money hitting later years. Now we're stuck with a worse cap situation in exchange for more room when we restructured.

We can't get out as easily now.

[RashanGary]

Here’s a very realistic way of describing in a metaphor.


If you have the cap hits later, you’ll have to cut your arm off later.

But instead of paying later, you just cut your arm off now. And what you’re saying is since you already cut your arm off, you’re winning because you don’t have to cut it off later.

You paid 40 mil. I paid 40 mil. No ones getting out of that guarantee with both arms. Sorry man.

[sharpe1027]

Here’s a very realistic way of describing in a metaphor.


If you have the cap hits later, you’ll have to cut your arm off later.

But instead of paying later, you just cut your arm off now. And what you’re saying is since you already cut your arm off, you’re winning because you don’t have to cut it off later.

You paid 40 mil. I paid 40 mil. No ones getting out of that guarantee with both arms. Sorry man.

Bahk would have been cut or traded already if not for the cap situation. That means we keep a broken player in the roster for one to two years of paying the nonguarantee portion of his contract because cutting him makes no sense from a cap perspective. We end up paying more overall and more cap hit overall.

[RashanGary]

Bahk would have been cut or traded already if not for the cap situation. That means we keep a broken player in the roster for one to two years of paying the nonguarantee portion of his contract because cutting him makes no sense from a cap perspective. We end up paying more overall and more cap hit overall.

The Packers signed David Baktiari to a 4 year 91 million dollar deal with 62M fully guaranteed. Whether you used signing bonuses or guaranteed roster bonuses, it’s still fully guaranteed.

Here’s how a front loaded deal with 62M guaranteed would look. And we HAVE TO INCLUDE THE GUARANTEED. That’s why he signed. There’s no way out of that.

20M signing bonus
42M total guaranteed roster bonuses
62M guarantees between the two types of bonuses
29M in non guaranteed base salaries
91M total

Year 1 - 1M base - 16M roster bonus paid at day 1 league year but fully guaranteed at signing (22M cap hit)
Year 2 - 1M base - 16M roster bonus paid on day 1 league year but fully guaranteed on signing (22M cap hit)
Year 3 - 11M base - 10M roster bound paid on day 1 league year but fully guaranteed on signing (26M cap hit)
Year 4 - 16M base - (21M cap hit)


No matter how you structure 62M of guarantees you still can’t cut him or all the guarantees accelerate. Once you decided you wanted David Bakhtiari, you decided you would pay a lot of guarantees and no matter how you structured it, you’re screwed if he has a career ender.

The real problem was the guarantees, not the later cap hits. There’s no way to guarantee 62M without paying 62M when you cut the guy. Draw me up a simple example where that money doesn’t accelerate when you cut him. Make it fully guaranteed and then don’t pay him. I want to see how you guarantee 62 and then don’t pay it because you cut him. I’ve never seen that .

[RashanGary]

If we’re just drawing up contracts without guaranteeing anything I would do this

1M base year 1
1M base year 2
1M base year 3
And
88M base year 4

That way if he gets injured I only pay him 1M. And that way I can just cut him after year 3. It’s much better to guarantee nothing and backload like that. And since it’s not a negotiation, we just do whatever we want, this is much safer. If he doesn’t get injured i’d restructure and pay him 1M per year for another 4 years.

[bobblehead]

The Packers signed David Baktiari to a 4 year 91 million dollar deal with 62M fully guaranteed. Whether you used signing bonuses or guaranteed roster bonuses, it’s still fully guaranteed.

Here’s how a front loaded deal with 62M guaranteed would look. And we HAVE TO INCLUDE THE GUARANTEED. That’s why he signed. There’s no way out of that.

20M signing bonus
42M total guaranteed roster bonuses
62M guarantees between the two types of bonuses
29M in non guaranteed base salaries
91M total

Year 1 - 1M base - 16M roster bonus paid at day 1 league year but fully guaranteed at signing (22M cap hit)
Year 2 - 1M base - 16M roster bonus paid on day 1 league year but fully guaranteed on signing (22M cap hit)
Year 3 - 11M base - 10M roster bound paid on day 1 league year but fully guaranteed on signing (26M cap hit)
Year 4 - 16M base - (21M cap hit)


No matter how you structure 62M of guarantees you still can’t cut him or all the guarantees accelerate. Once you decided you wanted David Bakhtiari, you decided you would pay a lot of guarantees and no matter how you structured it, you’re screwed if he has a career ender.

The real problem was the guarantees, not the later cap hits. There’s no way to guarantee 62M without paying 62M when you cut the guy. Draw me up a simple example where that money doesn’t accelerate when you cut him. Make it fully guaranteed and then don’t pay him. I want to see how you guarantee 62 and then don’t pay it because you cut him. I’ve never seen that .

All that WASN'T locked in when he signed. What happened is that each year Gutes guaranteed most of his base which converted it to bonus and stretched it over the remaining years. He did this because we were in cap hell and he needed to kick it down the road more. Now, in the final year of the deal the only way to kick it would be adding void years, which if I understand it, the player needs to agree to, and Bak wouldn't. Thus, all the coin we paid him wasn't "paid for" against the cap yet. Now is the time of reckoning.

[run pMc]

All that WASN'T locked in when he signed. What happened is that each year Gutes guaranteed most of his base which converted it to bonus and stretched it over the remaining years. He did this because we were in cap hell and he needed to kick it down the road more. Now, in the final year of the deal the only way to kick it would be adding void years, which if I understand it, the player needs to agree to, and Bak wouldn't. Thus, all the coin we paid him wasn't "paid for" against the cap yet. Now is the time of reckoning.

Agree. Converting salary to bonus is borrowing against future cap space.

As for this:
20M signing bonus
42M total guaranteed roster bonuses
62M guarantees between the two types of bonuses

those roster bonuses are NOT guaranteed if you aren't on the roster. Usually it's paid on the first day of the new season in March (or third or some other early day in the new season) and all it does is make sure that player gets that money if they get cut. It's effectively guaranteed salary.

[Bretsky]

All that WASN'T locked in when he signed. What happened is that each year Gutes guaranteed most of his base which converted it to bonus and stretched it over the remaining years. He did this because we were in cap hell and he needed to kick it down the road more. Now, in the final year of the deal the only way to kick it would be adding void years, which if I understand it, the player needs to agree to, and Bak wouldn't. Thus, all the coin we paid him wasn't "paid for" against the cap yet. Now is the time of reckoning.

Gute went to Back and tried to restructure

Back was looking out for his best interests (I kinda understand that, but on the other hand we kinda got screwed on this deal so it would have been nice if he would have considered that)


GOOD BYE DB.

[call_me_ishmael]

All that WASN'T locked in when he signed. What happened is that each year Gutes guaranteed most of his base which converted it to bonus and stretched it over the remaining years. He did this because we were in cap hell and he needed to kick it down the road more. Now, in the final year of the deal the only way to kick it would be adding void years, which if I understand it, the player needs to agree to, and Bak wouldn't. Thus, all the coin we paid him wasn't "paid for" against the cap yet. Now is the time of reckoning.

Yep, and roster bonuses are rarely guaranteed. Josh Allen is the only player I can recall seeing it where they accelerate if he's cut. Bak's deal was good at the time but Packers had to alter it to account for loading up to make a run. Nobody would care about this contract if we won it all. It's just time to move on. He's gonna get cut and that will be fine for him. Players should try to get as much as possible just as all workers should. Lifts all boats.

[RashanGary]

Your misunderstanding is that you think we guaranteed a signing bonus so we could take the hits later. The only reason we guaranteed money at all is because players refuse to sign without it. We were fucked regardless of how we structured guarantees once he had a career ender.

[sharpe1027]

Your misunderstanding is that you think we guaranteed a signing bonus so we could take the hits later. The only reason we guaranteed money at all is because players refuse to sign without it. We were fucked regardless of how we structured guarantees once he had a career ender.

You need to do some research about restructuring contracts and come back when you understand the basics

Now I'm being a dick.

[ThunderDan]

Your misunderstanding is that you think we guaranteed a signing bonus so we could take the hits later. The only reason we guaranteed money at all is because players refuse to sign without it. We were fucked regardless of how we structured guarantees once he had a career ender.

No you aren’t.

You can guarantee $20M of a contract and have no signing bonus.

So here are the contracts.

4 year, $20M guarantee
Cap hits 8, 9, 11, 12. If cut after year 2 cap hit is 3M, after year 3 cap hit is 0

4 year, $20M signing bonus guarantee.
Cap hits 3+5, 4+5, 6+5, 7+12 or 8, 9, 11, 12 same as above.
If cut after 2 years cap hit is $10M, after year 4 cap hit is $5M

[RashanGary]

I’ll entertain guaranteeing less if you made the contract bigger and made the first couple years bigger.


Like instead of 62M guaranteed, maybe you could get away with 52M guaranteed, but have those first two years jump it up to 82M real fast. That way he’s taking less guaranteed, but very very likely to earn an extra 20M that’s a near guarantee. I would consider that if I was negotiating.

I don’t even know if that would help much though. You’d still be in a real bad spot if he had a career ender.

[sharpe1027]

Where are you getting your information? What I have found is the roster bonus was not guaranteed. They cut him and it was gone. Once they converted it to a signing bonus that changed.

A roster bonus is paid if the player is on the roster. By definition it is conditional and not guaranteed. What am I missing?

[ThunderDan]

Look at Patrick Mahommes contract.

His guaranteed money ends after 2025. His contact runs through 2033 but the last 2 years are void years.

[Frozen Tundra]

Yeah; the Mahomes deal is probably the most team-friendly contract in the league, and Burrow's is decent as well. Brady, though - one thing I have to give to him is that he consistently took less money to help the team, even to the point of giving back some of his salary to sign Moss. A few years ago, I saw someone calculate that he probably left at least $60 millon on the table over his career, and possibly as juch as 100. He figured he'd rather be the guy with most championships than the guy with the most money.

[Joemailman]

Yeah; the Mahomes deal is probably the most team-friendly contract in the league, and Burrow's is decent as well. Brady, though - one thing I have to give to him is that he consistently took less money to help the team, even to the point of giving back some of his salary to sign Moss. A few years ago, I saw someone calculate that he probably left at least $60 millon on the table over his career, and possibly as juch as 100. He figured he'd rather be the guy with most championships than the guy with the most money.

Of course, Brady also had the advantage of being married to someone who made as much money as he did.

[Frozen Tundra]

Of course, Brady also had the advantage of being married to someone who made as much money as he did.

Yeah, absolutely. She had a nice little side gig that brought in extra cash for when the electric bill and the gas bill were both high the same month, and also they didn't have kids in the family. So there was no day care or whatever.

Those things add up.

[bobblehead]

Of course, Brady also had the advantage of being married to someone who made as much money as he did.

That explains why Jonathan Owens signs league minimum deals....I mean, part of the reason.

[texaspackerbacker]

Yeah, Joe and Frozen, you beat me to it saying that about Brady and the Mrs. When she dumped him, he had to go back to work for Tampa hahahaha.