Tragedy at Virginia Tech

[Merlin]

The media royally screwed up once again. By showing his pictures, his writings and his videos, they gave him everything he wanted. Way to make him be the spotlight. Why not show us the lives of the 32 people he murdered? Why not focus on what was taken from us? Instead the media gives this guy validation for what he did.

Awhile back, professional sports stopped televising the idiots who run onto the field. Why? So they wouldn't get the attention.

It's one thing to have experts disseminate the information and then give us their take on the guy. It's entirely another to listen to any unqualified talking head speak as if they are an expert while they show this shit. We may want to know everything but this wasn't the way to do it. We won't hear about the victims until their funerals, if even then.

What's more important? Knowing the people he murdered or the obvious that the guy was a nutball?

[Kiwon]

You hit the nail on the head, Merlin.

In my opinion, NBC did more harm than good when they decided to immediately air the material. A real classy Al-Jazeera move.

[K-town]

Maybe its just the cowboy in me, but my immediate thoughts would be if I charge and leap at this guy he isn't going to be able to get a good shot on me, and if he does it will likely only be one. If thats how god has deemed me to die, than I would let fate run its course.

Don't know how much of a "cowboy" I would be in that situation, but...
Judging from what I've seen from the Columbine coverage, plus what happened here in K-town some years back, YOU are in charge of saving your own life. The authorities seem quite willing to "contain the situation", thus leaving the hostages at the mercy of the gunmen/psychos for extended periods of time. In both instances, while SWAT and the hostage negotiators were busy setting up and attempting to make contact, people were dying.

If you're going to die anyway waiting for SWAT to take their requisite 2-4 hours to get into action, maybe it's better to go down fighting.
Or find a really, REALLY good hiding spot.

[MJZiggy]

I'll go with that second option...

[mraynrand]

Another difficult reality is that he would not have had any access to guns in Korea to strike out at society as he did in the U.S.

Is this really true? What are the laws like and how much gun crime happens there?

The reality here is that if the guy wanted guns, and could only get them illegally, he'd easily be able to get them in America. From what I know of Korea, the culture itself is the reason there is less gun crime. If Cho fuck dong hadn't been able to get his hands on a gun, it's likely the number dead would have been less, but he probably would have eventually killed someone. Gun laws are not a panacea - there are plenty of decent (and impartial) studies showing that presence of conceal-carry laws correlate with reduced shooting deaths. If people want to kill one another they usually can find a way.

I'm with Partial, though. I'd be casting my lot in with the 75 year old guy trying to kick the shit out of that punk, if at all possible. Where were the MEN?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Didn't some nutcase in Korea shoot ~55 people awhile back--even though there is gun control in Korea?

As much as people can scream for gun control because of this, this case is an argument for more conceal and carry. It's a deterent to criminals, and this guy might have been shot before he could kill 32 people if somebody else had a gun.

[Kiwon]

Another difficult reality is that he would not have had any access to guns in Korea to strike out at society as he did in the U.S.

Is this really true? What are the laws like and how much gun crime happens there?

The only people with guns are the police and the army (and maybe a few mafia types).

There are no gun crimes because no one has access to guns. There's even been concern over the availability of air pistols. Every once in a while there will be a shooting on an army base when someone gets bullied too much, but that about it.

1998-2000 statistics:

Manslaughters: 3,737
(per capita): 0.0768282 per 1,000 people
Murders: 955
(per capita): 0.0196336 per 1,000 people

When someone is murdered it is usually with a knife or brute force.

That being said, Korea didn't have its first democratic government until 1997 and America has never had a coup d'etat. The 2nd Amendment works to check the power of the federal government.

[Scott Campbell]

Judging from what I've seen from the Columbine coverage, plus what happened here in K-town some years back, YOU are in charge of saving your own life. The authorities seem quite willing to "contain the situation", thus leaving the hostages at the mercy of the gunmen/psychos for extended periods of time. In both instances, while SWAT and the hostage negotiators were busy setting up and attempting to make contact, people were dying.

That used to be true everywhere, but not so in SLC anymore. 2 months ago a 18 year old shooter entered a shopping mall on a similar rampage. SWAT took him out 6 minutes after the initial 911 call. He killed 5 people and wounded a bunch of others, but if it weren't for the quick reaction and heroism of the police, the death toll could have easily reached or exceeded the Virginia Tech shootings.

There are SWAT teams from all over the country coming here to study how the police here did it. The thinking has shifted from setting up a perimeter and waiting things out to take the shooter(s) out before they can kill scores of unarmed victims.

[HarveyWallbangers]

1998-2000 statistics:

Manslaughters: 3,737
(per capita): 0.0768282 per 1,000 people
Murders: 955
(per capita): 0.0196336 per 1,000 people

When someone is murdered it is usually with a knife or brute force.

That being said, Korea didn't have its first democratic government until 1997 and America has never had a coup d'etat. The 2nd Amendment works to check the power of the federal government.

It's not necessarily a matter of guns = more murders. You can look at North Dakota, Montana, etc. They have high percentage of gun ownerships and rarely have murders. They year I graduated from high school, North Dakota had 1 murder. I know the state only has 600,000-700,000 people, but that's a pretty miniscule murder rate. Why is that? To me, it's a societal issue. We have to fix the culture that breeds these types of acts. Sometimes, a guy is just a nutcase though, and there's little you can do about it. Do we really think a nutcase like this would have lived a law-abiding, non-murderous life if there weren't guns out there? Guns aren't the only weapons out there. This guy could have killed any other ways--with a knife, serial killer style--picking off victims one-by-one, started a fire in a populated place, built a bomb, etc. Getting rid of legally owned guns isn't going to get rid of guns in the hands of criminals either.

[K-town]

Judging from what I've seen from the Columbine coverage, plus what happened here in K-town some years back, YOU are in charge of saving your own life. The authorities seem quite willing to "contain the situation", thus leaving the hostages at the mercy of the gunmen/psychos for extended periods of time. In both instances, while SWAT and the hostage negotiators were busy setting up and attempting to make contact, people were dying.

That used to be true everywhere, but not so in SLC anymore. 2 months ago a 18 year old shooter entered a shopping mall on a similar rampage. SWAT took him out 6 minutes after the initial 911 call. He killed 5 people and wounded a bunch of others, but if it weren't for the quick reaction and heroism of the police, the death toll could have easily reached or exceeded the Virginia Tech shootings.

There are SWAT teams from all over the country coming here to study how the police here did it. The thinking has shifted from setting up a perimeter and waiting things out to take the shooter(s) out before they can kill scores of unarmed victims.

That is really good news, as far as SLC realizing that the stakes and rules of the game have changed. Hope all police forces learn the concept that immediate action more often than not saves lives. Thanks for the update, SC.

[Badgepack]

After what happened this week, I thinking of asking my college attending daughters for a schedule that lets me know when their classes are and what are the names of the buildings that they are in at that time.

I can't image what parents of VT students went thru on Monday.

It's a sad world we live in sometimes.

Talking to our oldest child over Christmas break, she wondered if she wants to raise kids in the world today. How sad, but I can see her point.

[MJZiggy]

It's a sad world we live in sometimes.

Talking to our oldest child over Christmas break, she wondered if she wants to raise kids in the world today. How sad, but I can see her point.

But people have been saying that for generations...

[esoxx]

Yeah, I'm sure when Hitler was running amok and there were mass exterminations of a certain ethnic group of people that the regular folks out there didn't think the world was screwed up, b/c it was.

There's nutjobs and heinous acts commited throughout history. We just know about every little detail now with internet and mass media coverage. The inherent evil in some humans is not a recent event.

[Kiwon]

Where were the MEN?

One answer: Many of the best of them are overseas serving their country in a voluntary military.

Another answer: "When Cho killed 32 people at Virginia Tech, the horrific slaughter revealed not only the poisons lurking in popular culture but the crisis of young males in a feminised society, says Sarah Baxter"

(edit)

"In a twist to the debate on masculinity, some commentators have complained that the terrified Virginia Tech students were no Rambos when it came to defending themselves. John Derbyshire, a right-wing British writer based in America, wondered, “Why didn’t anyone rush the guy? Yes, I know it is easy to say these things, but didn’t the heroes of Flight 93 teach us anything?” — a reference to the passengers fighting back in the 9/11 hijacked plane.

The columnist Mark Steyn took up the theme with an essay on the “culture of passivity” that is overtaking America. In his view, students are becoming so infantilised that they have lost their capacity to take responsibility.

“In a horrible world, there may come moments when you have to choose between protecting yourself and others,” he believes. “It is a poor reflection on us that in those critical first seconds where one has to make a decision, only an elderly Holocaust survivor understood instinctively the obligation to act.”

Librescu, 75, forced his body against the door to prevent Cho storming his classroom, gaining time for some of his students to escape. He was shot dead. But there were younger heroes, too, such as Derek O’Dell, who was shot in the arm but managed to wedge his foot in the door and prevent Cho from re-entering the classroom.

Another student, realising that a friend was playing dead, was said to have deliberately drawn Cho’s attention to himself as the gunman searched the room for survivors — and sacrificed his own life."

(edit - end)

Full story - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1686784.ece

My opinion: I can't find fault with anyone. While there is some truth in the two above answers, I am familiar with contingency training and the basic flight-or-fight response is fairly engrained.

Cho had planned what he was going to do and how he was going to do it. I suspect that the combination of surprise, power of automatic weapons, and shock at the bloodshed practically paralyzed many victims, especially at the first classroom.

The heroes in this case weren't able to stop him but they were able to save lives by blocking the doors with their bodies as he roamed the hallways. It takes great courage to brace yourself against a wooden door to give others the opportunity to escape when you know that there's a killer coming your way.

Another thought: I am still furious with the media's treatment of this. To fulfill this killer's wishes and give him a platform for his rantings so soon after the event (even before any victims were buried) is unconscionable. Grieving families won't see or hear their loved ones again but they had to suffer through the indignity of seeing the face and hearing the voice of the person who killed their family member just 2 days prior. No real public interest was served. It was just a ratings ploy and a despicable one at that.

[Joemailman]

The comparison of the actions of the students in this case to the actions on Flight 93 in unfair. These students were faced with a guy firing 2 semi-automatic handguns, not a bunch of guys carrying box cutters. The heroes of Flight 93 were able to plan their assault. The students of Virginia Tech had no such chance.

[mraynrand]

Thanks for the responses Kiwon, Joe. My comment was more frustration than anything else. As a detached observer all I know is I'm pretty sure I'd rather be dead than alive, knowing I hadn't done something to try to prevent the guy from shooting helpless kids, especially young women. But in fairness, I know nothing of the exact circumstances. While I think my reaction would have been to toss books, computers, etc. at the guy and try to rush him maybe with a desk as a shield, if possible, who knows how it actually went down and whether people had any chance to react at all.
But because the old guy acted, it seems as though a bunch of guys, all choosing to attack cho, could have stopped him. I can't help but wonder if in a different era, with more aggressive males the norm, this might have happened. I didn't mean to pass any negative judgment on the kids though. Just putting myself in their place and wondering and hoping something could be done to exterminate the vermin.