The folly of the independent voter

[Harlan Huckleby]

(There are shortcuts for doing a run-off, namely by having people indicate both their first and second choice right at the original election.)

But in the case of that system wouldn't you have people making their 2nd choice to strategically help their 1st choice. If that happens you have people practically using 2 votes to help 1 candidate.

I think I see what you mean, some people might use their 2nd choice on a obscure candidate rather than on a potential rival of their first choice. Ummm, but then they would also be benefiting candidates that they despise. Don't sweat it, I'm sure most people would simply honestly rate their top 2 candidates.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Had McCain won in 2000, are we at war now? It's not just electing the party line, the candidate makes choices beyond who's who in Washington...

I see what you are saying, maybe a candidate comes along that is so good, you vote for them even though you disagree with many of the positions of their party.

McCain is a good example, he is a maverick republican who frequently crosses party lines.

There's merit to your position, but it's still the smaller share of the argument. Look at the House and Senate, almost ALL of the votes are 95% along party lines. McCain, just like Bush before him, wouldn't be able to do a damn thing without the consent of large percentage of the Republicans in Congress.

[Fosco33]

When I hear somebody call themselves an independent voter in presidential elections I just shake my head. You may think you are choosing the best person available, but in our stinky political system, you are not.

A presidential election is about electing a party to power. If you help elect a republican, thousands of republicans will pour into Washington to steer the Interior Department, Education, etc. etc. in a direction along republican philisophical lines. And then there's the all important Supreme Court and Federal Court appointments, which will also be chosen largely from a pool of party loyalists.

Grow up, dumb ass. Decide whether you are more philisophically aligned with the Dems or Republicans and pull the appropriate lever. Stop all that thinking. It's not a good system, but it's reality.

I hate our system - I want much bigger changes. Neither party does shit for me. I pay as much in taxes as many people make in wages - and I'll never benefit from this tax. Remember, taxation without representation.

How about taxation without utilization?

And a significant 3rd party vote can have serious repercussions for the election - 'taking' votes from one party (i.e., I may vote for an independent or a Republican - the independent vote would then help the Democrats).

[Cheesehead Craig]

Let's make our own 3rd Party. The Packer Party!

Who's wants to be considered for our rep?

[swede]

I don't really see the big problem. Ballot scanning machines seem to be the ideal hybrid - accurate electronic tabulation plus a paper trail. I think more states are moving that direction.

I agree! And then Florida, after the 2000 debacle, started investing millions of dollars into touch-screen voting. No paper trail, one computer glitch away from a disaster, and if the the Florida oldheads were too feeble to work a punch ballot just wait til you park their walkers in front of an electronic device that says "Quieres continuar en ingles o espanol?"

[The Leaper]

I don't really see the big problem. Ballot scanning machines seem to be the ideal hybrid - accurate electronic tabulation plus a paper trail. I think more states are moving that direction.

True...but why has it taken so long to figure that out, and by wasting millions in taxpayer dollars in the process???

[MJZiggy]

Cuz no one thought of it?

[Freak Out]

I don't really see the big problem. Ballot scanning machines seem to be the ideal hybrid - accurate electronic tabulation plus a paper trail. I think more states are moving that direction.

True...but why has it taken so long to figure that out, and by wasting millions in taxpayer dollars in the process???

We've used the optical scanner/paper ballot up here for years and it's worked well.

[Scott Campbell]

When I hear somebody call themselves an independent voter in presidential elections I just shake my head. You may think you are choosing the best person available, but in our stinky political system, you are not.

A presidential election is about electing a party to power. If you help elect a republican, thousands of republicans will pour into Washington to steer the Interior Department, Education, etc. etc. in a direction along republican philisophical lines. And then there's the all important Supreme Court and Federal Court appointments, which will also be chosen largely from a pool of party loyalists.

Grow up, dumb ass. Decide whether you are more philisophically aligned with the Dems or Republicans and pull the appropriate lever. Stop all that thinking. It's not a good system, but it's reality.

I hate our system - I want much bigger changes. Neither party does shit for me. I pay as much in taxes as many people make in wages - and I'll never benefit from this tax. Remember, taxation without representation.

How about taxation without utilization?

And a significant 3rd party vote can have serious repercussions for the election - 'taking' votes from one party (i.e., I may vote for an independent or a Republican - the independent vote would then help the Democrats).

Amen brother. And why can't we opt out of Social Security? Why in the world should the government run retiriement plans.

[Freak Out]

When I hear somebody call themselves an independent voter in presidential elections I just shake my head. You may think you are choosing the best person available, but in our stinky political system, you are not.

A presidential election is about electing a party to power. If you help elect a republican, thousands of republicans will pour into Washington to steer the Interior Department, Education, etc. etc. in a direction along republican philisophical lines. And then there's the all important Supreme Court and Federal Court appointments, which will also be chosen largely from a pool of party loyalists.

Grow up, dumb ass. Decide whether you are more philisophically aligned with the Dems or Republicans and pull the appropriate lever. Stop all that thinking. It's not a good system, but it's reality.

I hate our system - I want much bigger changes. Neither party does shit for me. I pay as much in taxes as many people make in wages - and I'll never benefit from this tax. Remember, taxation without representation.

How about taxation without utilization?

And a significant 3rd party vote can have serious repercussions for the election - 'taking' votes from one party (i.e., I may vote for an independent or a Republican - the independent vote would then help the Democrats).

Amen brother. And why can't we opt out of Social Security? Why in the world should the government run retiriement plans.

I just heard Huckabee call for a National sales tax to replace the income tax. Intriguing idea.
I don't mind Social Security at all....it's a rather small portion of the "taxes" I pay out overall. I pay way more in Federal withholding...I like to call it the "fucked zone". I'm with Fosco...neither of the parties now do much for me anymore.

[Partial]

Fair Tax is an excellent idea. You don't pay a lot simply because you make a lot, you pay a lot if you live a baller lifestyle. If you're out buying new cars every year and wasting money, then you pay the piper. If you're a wealthy, thrifty person like most of the upper middle class people are, you pay very little in taxes when you don't spend your cash.

I would like fair tax since I am big on used merchandise. However, it will change the way people shop. Wal-mart won't be nearly as crowded.

[Joemailman]

I see the Fair Tax as another screwing of the middle class. These are the people who have to spend the highest percentage of their income just to put food on the table and clothes on their kids. I don't know all the details of Huckabee's plan, but I'm skeptical.

[Partial]

Food isn't taxed. Clothes are. But, if you buy affordable clothing and live within your means than it isn't that expensive on a 10 dollar shirt.

[The Leaper]

I see the Fair Tax as another screwing of the middle class. These are the people who have to spend the highest percentage of their income just to put food on the table and clothes on their kids. I don't know all the details of Huckabee's plan, but I'm skeptical.

I agree. I hate sales taxes...anyone who makes under 30,000 a year shouldn't have to pay a dime in taxes to the US government considering the vast corporate wealth in this nation. Make the corporations pay their fair share...and force them to keep workers in this country to receive any kind of tax breaks.

The only individual tax that makes sense to me is a graduated flat tax with limited deduction capacities and loopholes.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't mind Social Security at all....it's a rather small portion of the "taxes" I pay out overall.

You really should mind Social Security, it is the single greatest screw job against lower and middle class people. Social Security taxes are capped at 75K (or some such figure.) Meaning people making more than 75K pay a smaller rate as they earn more.

And the real killer: SS taxes only apply to labor! If you earn your money through investment, you pay ZERO SS taxes.

And BTW, "tax" is theoretically the wrong term. It is supposed to be like paying a premium for an insurance policy, which is the justification for capping it for rich folk. But in reality, the SS moneys collected goes immediately towards the purchase of treasury bills - which makes it effectively identical to a tax! The SS money acts as an EXTREMELY regressive tax that keeps progressive income taxes artificially low.

I'm telling you, unless you're making a lot of money, or earning your money through investment, you are getting f-u-c-k-e-d.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I see the Fair Tax as another screwing of the middle class. These are the people who have to spend the highest percentage of their income just to put food on the table and clothes on their kids. I don't know all the details of Huckabee's plan, but I'm skeptical.

You're right to be skeptical. On the face of it, it's not a good deal for the lower and middle classes.

But I am still intrigued. The devil is in the details, there are ways to recompensate people at the bottom end. I'm open minded, it could be fairer than the income tax. Europe works well with a similar system.

[Freak Out]

I don't mind Social Security at all....it's a rather small portion of the "taxes" I pay out overall.

You really should mind Social Security, it is the single greatest screw job against lower and middle class people. Social Security taxes are capped at 75K (or some such figure.) Meaning people making more than 75K pay a smaller rate as they earn more.

And the real killer: SS taxes only apply to labor! If you earn your money through investment, you pay ZERO SS taxes.

And BTW, "tax" is theoretically the wrong term. It is supposed to be like paying a premium for an insurance policy, which is the justification for capping it for rich folk. But in reality, the SS moneys collected goes immediately towards the purchase of treasury bills - which makes it effectively identical to a tax! The SS money acts as an EXTREMELY regressive tax that keeps progressive income taxes artificially low.

I'm telling you, unless you're making a lot of money, or earning your money through investment, you are getting f-u-c-k-e-d.

I didn't say that some type of reform was not needed...I just like the thought that it is going to help many Americans that are not saving at all right now. It is going to mean very little to me in my retirement years....at least I am hoping so.

[Harlan Huckleby]

freaky, I'm not being critical of the Social Security system. It just should be funded out of the general treasury, instead of the current shell game where only the working people pay.

[Freak Out]

freaky, I'm not being critical of the Social Security system. It just should be funded out of the general treasury, instead of the current shell game where only the working people pay.

The entire system fucks the working class as it stands now. We need to march on the castle with our torches and pitchforks.....wait a second..I'm not working class. But I was so count me in.

[Joemailman]

I see the Fair Tax as another screwing of the middle class. These are the people who have to spend the highest percentage of their income just to put food on the table and clothes on their kids. I don't know all the details of Huckabee's plan, but I'm skeptical.

You're right to be skeptical. On the face of it, it's not a good deal for the lower and middle classes.

But I am still intrigued. The devil is in the details, there are ways to recompensate people at the bottom end. I'm open minded, it could be fairer than the income tax. Europe works well with a similar system.

Actually, I think I heard Huckabee say there would be a rebate for low income people. He didn't say exactly how low. It's the effect on the middle class I would worry about. I applaud him for being willing to suggest something as bold as this. I wonder if it could cost him though. Makes him an easy target for opponents who could try to misrepresent what the effect of the tax would be.