Serious Question: Love vs Clifford

[Fritz]

I've been wondering what a "good" loss looks like - and now I have an answer.

If Love can improve on his accuracy over the course of the season, and if Watson improves, those two pieces would be huge. Then maybe give Sean Rhyan a shot at right guard, and if he shows he can be an NFL starter, you've got some important answers going into the draft regarding what you do and may not need.

I know I've read the Packers seem to think center is Tom's best position. I wonder if there's any consideration of letting Myers depart (is he in the last year of his rookie deal? Or coming up on it?) in some manner - a trade for a seventh round choice or something? Then draft two or three offensive tackles. But that may be dumb if Myers is actually playing well, as the coaches keep claiming.

I wonder now too what the offseason holds for guys like Preston Smith and Devondre Campbell, and even maybe Jaire. Though it would seem crazy to trade him - I think his contract is very doable for the team, and yes, he's been hurt, but when he plays he's pretty damn good. Contrast that with Eric Stokes, who started well, then did not play well at the beginning of his second season, and then got hurt and hurt. Not sure what there is to build on there - his play was already nosediving before he was injured. Plus, you're going to need to draft about thirteen safeties anyway, so why add to the DB need in the draft?

[Bretsky]

A good Loss

Seeing more hope for Jordan Love with some faith maybe he can be a top 10 QB
Seeing the WR's grow
Seeing the young defenders grow so we have hope going forward
Seeing more light from the offensive line

And a loss to improve our draft position

[bobblehead]

A good loss:

Individual defensive players do what is asked of them, but the defense underperforms so we can fire Joe Barry.

[Fritz]

I don't think tanking is a strategy - even in the NBA, there are no guarantees that it will work out. What team tanked a couple years ago - New Orleans? - to get some supposed sure-fire stud, and he's been hurt and whiny. So that's in a sport with only five starters.

Tanking can't be done in the NFL - it's too much of a short-term league. Look at the Jest - Saleh is trying like hell to hang on to his job until next year when Rodgers comes back, but there's no patience for him to keep trotting Zack
Wilson out there - even if it gets them some high draft pick. And that's a nasty defense already.

[bobblehead]

I agree fritz. Tanking is kinda silly. Can't miss guys miss all the time in the NFL. Guys you never heard of from the 5th round turn into ballers. Scout well, pick well, teach well.

[call_me_ishmael]

I totally disagree. You're pretty unlikely to win a super bowl without a star QB and you're unlikely to get a premier one unless you're picking at the top. Yeah, yeah, I know, Mahomes, Rodgers, and Brady disagree. I still think picking #1 is the best chance at getting the next one of those dudes, you just have to scout well and get lucky on the year that your team sucks.

You want Andy Luck or Joe Burrow, not Jared Goff or Kyler Murray or Baker Mayfield or Jameis Winston or Cam Newton or Sam Bradford or Alex Smith, so tanking in the right year is really important and frankly lucky since Joe Burrow wasn't Joe Burrow until he was Joe Burrow.

[texaspackerbacker]

I hope you know, your examples, both the good ones and the mediocre ones, almost without exception, completely undermine your assertion: "You're pretty unlikely to win a super bowl without a star QB and you're unlikely to get a premier one unless you're picking at the top."

[call_me_ishmael]

I hope you know, your examples, both the good ones and the mediocre ones, almost without exception, completely undermine your assertion: "You're pretty unlikely to win a super bowl without a star QB and you're unlikely to get a premier one unless you're picking at the top."

You're not guaranteed to get a star when tanking. But you've at least got a shot one every few years. Getting a Brady or Rodgers or Mahomes is a total crap shoot and complete luck. There is at least some science to tanking.

[texaspackerbacker]

Odds of a random top 5 pick becoming Rodgers or Brady level (Mahomes has to wear that underwear a few more years before he's in that category) are about the same IMO as the odds of Jordan Love rising to that level.

[Joemailman]

Foe the record, Mahomes wasn't a top 5 pick. He was the 10th pick in the 2017 draft. And the Chiefs didn't tank to get that pick. The Chiefs were 12-4 in 2016 and traded up from the 27th spot to the 10th spot to draft him.

[call_me_ishmael]

Odds of a random top 5 pick becoming Rodgers or Brady level (Mahomes has to wear that underwear a few more years before he's in that category) are about the same IMO as the odds of Jordan Love rising to that level.

Not top 5, top 1. I think you are dramatically more likely to get a superstar at QB picking #1 than getting lucky and landing someone elsewhere in the draft. Obviously - because if you're picking #1 you can take the best player that if you're not picking #1 is out of your control.

Thus - tanking works but you need to pick your year. If you have a chance to get Andrew Luck you tank obviously. You have a chance to get a generational prospect, you do it. You see Peyton right there in the draft, you absolutely tank for him.

[Joemailman]

Tanking to get a top 5 pick for a QB hasn't worked for a decade. The last team to win a Super Bowl with a top 5 pick that they drafted at QB was the Giants with Eli Manning when they won in 2011. Since then it's been:

Ravens - Joe Flacco - 18th pick
Seahawks - Russell Wilson - 3rd round pick
Patriots - Tom Brady - 6th round pick
Broncos - Peyton Manning - Signed as free agent
Patriots - Tom Brady - 6th round pick
Eagles - Nick Foles - 3rd round pick
Patriots - Tom Brady - 6th round pick
Chiefs - Patrick Mahomes - trade up for 10th overall pick
Buccaneers - Tom Brady - signed as free agent
Rams -Matt Stafford - Traded for him
Chiefs - Patrick Mahomes - trade up for 10th overall pick

[run pMc]

A GM might trade players away to speed up a rebuild, and you can consider than tanking, sure. That's on the GM/Front Office side.
On the coaching/players side tanking does not happen in the NFL. Those guys have careers and pride at stake. Ask Lovie Smith and the Texans last year.

Brian Flores' accusations of tanking coming from the owner/GM may be true, but he pushed back on those, privately and publicly. Coaches who finish a season with a bad record to pick Top 5 rarely survive to coach the same team the following season. Many of the players get swept away with that new coaching regime, etc. They want to keep their jobs, they aren't tanking.

[texaspackerbacker]

Not top 5, top 1. I think you are dramatically more likely to get a superstar at QB picking #1 than getting lucky and landing someone elsewhere in the draft. Obviously - because if you're picking #1 you can take the best player that if you're not picking #1 is out of your control.

Thus - tanking works but you need to pick your year. If you have a chance to get Andrew Luck you tank obviously. You have a chance to get a generational prospect, you do it. You see Peyton right there in the draft, you absolutely tank for him.

The first "Top 1" QB pick that comes to mind is Alex Smith. Undoubtedly there have been others. Which do you have in mind as "Brady/Rodgers/Mahomes level"?

Yeah, if a person could see the future, he'd draft Peyton Manning. Luck definitely not. Even in that weird circumstance, slam dunk sure to get the next Peyton Manning, I'd say hell no to tanking, and I'm pretty sure the Packer organization would to.

[call_me_ishmael]

Tanking to get a top 5 pick for a QB hasn't worked for a decade. The last team to win a Super Bowl with a top 5 pick that they drafted at QB was the Giants with Eli Manning when they won in 2011. Since then it's been:

Ravens - Joe Flacco - 18th pick
Seahawks - Russell Wilson - 3rd round pick
Patriots - Tom Brady - 6th round pick
Broncos - Peyton Manning - Signed as free agent
Patriots - Tom Brady - 6th round pick
Eagles - Nick Foles - 3rd round pick
Patriots - Tom Brady - 6th round pick
Chiefs - Patrick Mahomes - trade up for 10th overall pick
Buccaneers - Tom Brady - signed as free agent
Rams -Matt Stafford - Traded for him
Chiefs - Patrick Mahomes - trade up for 10th overall pick

To be fair the main guy who would have won one retired in his prime.

[Joemailman]

To be fair the main guy who would have won one retired in his prime.

To be fair that is highly debatable. He had a 73.4 passer rating in 8 playoff games with 12 TD passes and 13 INT's.

[ThunderDan]

A GM might trade players away to speed up a rebuild, and you can consider than tanking, sure. That's on the GM/Front Office side.
On the coaching/players side tanking does not happen in the NFL. Those guys have careers and pride at stake. Ask Lovie Smith and the Texans last year.

Brian Flores' accusations of tanking coming from the owner/GM may be true, but he pushed back on those, privately and publicly. Coaches who finish a season with a bad record to pick Top 5 rarely survive to coach the same team the following season. Many of the players get swept away with that new coaching regime, etc. They want to keep their jobs, they aren't tanking.

Pat Kirwan, on NFL radio, pointed out that coaches that don’t win at least 5 games get fired. It was something in the 80% range or there about. About the only coaches that don’t, are first year coaches.

[Vincenzo]

I need a hero
I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night
He's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
I need a hero

[Bretsky]

I've been wondering what a "good" loss looks like - and now I have an answer.

If Love can improve on his accuracy over the course of the season, and if Watson improves, those two pieces would be huge. Then maybe give Sean Rhyan a shot at right guard, and if he shows he can be an NFL starter, you've got some important answers going into the draft regarding what you do and may not need.

I know I've read the Packers seem to think center is Tom's best position. I wonder if there's any consideration of letting Myers depart (is he in the last year of his rookie deal? Or coming up on it?) in some manner - a trade for a seventh round choice or something? Then draft two or three offensive tackles. But that may be dumb if Myers is actually playing well, as the coaches keep claiming.

I wonder now too what the offseason holds for guys like Preston Smith and Devondre Campbell, and even maybe Jaire. Though it would seem crazy to trade him - I think his contract is very doable for the team, and yes, he's been hurt, but when he plays he's pretty damn good. Contrast that with Eric Stokes, who started well, then did not play well at the beginning of his second season, and then got hurt and hurt. Not sure what there is to build on there - his play was already nosediving before he was injured. Plus, you're going to need to draft about thirteen safeties anyway, so why add to the DB need in the draft?

Did you listen to Flower boys press conference ? Jason Wilde was disappointed in the Packers Defensive Scheme and the fact that GB did little to stop the Steelers running game and asked Flower boy about him going into a Nickel defense in several key plays (hinting why was the focus not on stopping the run). Flower got irritated and snapped back at Wilde and noted when they have LB lining up very wide on the line it's not a nickel. Kinda chastised Wilde. Wilde gave a nice follow up question about how/why the Steelers running game was so effective against it and Flower continued his rant and avoided the real question.....which should have been "WHY the H didn't BARRYBALL stack the box/focus on the run and try to make Pickett beat us ?

Anyways, a LOT of chat about that with Tauscher and Bulage and Wilde and Steve the Homer and they all concluded one thing. FLOWER, to his detremement, is trying to constantly cover for BARRY BALL

What a horrible mistake it was to bring him back, and Flower wants none of that chatter.

So a GOOD LOSS tomorrow, would include Love stepping up, several young players stepping up and showing progress, but BARRY once again making some bad calls that result in a loss.

The GREATER GOOD.....can ONLY END..........in BARRY DEPARTING.

And we're not nearly there yet

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I need a hero
I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night
He's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
I need a hero

Word.

Btw: We need Prof Rand back badly. He’s the only one, aside from you and I, who truly appreciate poetry (and lyrics).