This is a case in which I can say I have wondered the same thing, Tex.Originally Posted by texaspackerbacker
So . . . . Dr. Nutzy, for what reasons is this not happening? Too much invested in the run and not the forward pass?
This is a case in which I can say I have wondered the same thing, Tex.
So . . . . Dr. Nutzy, for what reasons is this not happening? Too much invested in the run and not the forward pass?
"The Devine era is actually worse than you remember if you go back and look at it."
KYPack
My guess is that it is generally favored to have two TEs and one deep RB when they want a formation with good run pass balance.
Specialization. In the 80s Auburn decided to break from the wishbone so that they could feature Bo Jackson. Nebraska broke from the wishbone in the 90s to feature their I backs instead of their fullbacks. Ask the bigger guy to focus on blocking, and ask the more athletic guy to run the damn ball 35 times a game. Again, I would say it started in college, to recruit Eric Dickerson, Bo Jackson, Barry Sanders, and even guys like Ahman Green you needed to draw them to your school and to do that you needed to have a featured back. You didn't really ask them to block unless it was pass pro. So featured backs began to lose the skill of run blocking. Featured backs in the NFL became expensive, a luxury item, they were well paid and you weren't going to take carries away from your highest paid offensive weapon. Also, you couldn't afford two of those guys in your backfield. The last time I can even think of having two Hall of Fame type backs in the same backfield was Jackson and Allen with the Raiders, and I can't remember if they used both at the same time.
You also had the advent of the West Coast offense which changed how the game of football was played, especially in the NFL. You still had two back sets and the fullback was still primarily utilized as a blocker, but they had to catch the ball out of the backfield just as well if not better than your featured back. Then as the West Coast offense began to meld with the Air Raid, fullbacks became H-backs or Y-off players. they aligned in such a way that there was never a real threat they were going to get the hand off out of the backfield. It's gotten to the point where the fullback has morphed with the tight end position.
Now teams have taken offenses like the aforementioned Wing T and have customized it for todays game. You have replaced the fullback trap with QB trap, you have replaced FB power with QB power, you have replaced Belly with QB Belly, and Buck sweep with Pin and Pull. You have replaced wishbone Triple option with RPOs, Zone Read, and Power read. There is only so many ways you can stretch a defense. unless the field gets wider, or you add or subtract players the confines of the game are the same.
Some coach will start working two backs into the backfield at some point, he will start giving the ball equally to both backs and he will be heralded as an inventor when in reality he is just a thief. In football their is nothing wrong with being a thief, its how the game works.
Nice post, Nutz. I must admit, I ain’t got a fucking clue what “Belly”, “Buck Sweep” and “Pin and Pull” pertain to.
I’m somewhat surprised that with the RB positions becoming less and less valuable as the years roll by, the “Pistol Force” offense - 0 RB, 2 TE, 3 WR formation - ain’t currently the fab.
I'm not going to stop the wheel. I'm going to break the wheel.
In trying to assemble likely Gutey picks from the PFF draft sim, I am paying a lot of attention to the ages of the prospects - and wondering how much weight he places on that factor. I don't see him picking the 23+ & 24 year old guys.
Who Knows? The Shadow knows!
And : some players, like Kris Jenkins & Frank Gore Jr., keep magically appearing in likely Pack drafting spots.
Who Knows? The Shadow knows!
I believe he generally doesn't although Devonte Wyatt was a notable exception.
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Trying to lie your way in thru the back door, eh Tank?
Forces have nothing to do with offensive schemes.
They are responsibilities on defense.
BC you never played, you don't know that.
NIL and COVID year eligibilty is giving players the chance to play 5 or 6 years and get paid. Until the COVID eligibility unwinds completely you'll see more 23 year old rookies.
The NIL is interesting as well, since it often means players stay in school an extra year or even two.
I still think CFB is a mess right now, and would be very skeptical of 23 year olds who suddenly have great senior years.
Why wouldn't they? They're grown men playing against 19 and 20 year olds!
If given the choice, Gute will lean younger, but I don't think he's going to remove a player from the board if age is the only issue. As mentioned previously, Wyatt was old AND had a red flag for a domestic, and they still took him.
If you assume they hit their physical peak at 26 or 27, you have a potentially longer upside with a 21 year old rookie than a 24 year old. That's what makes guys like LVN interesting, and why Kenny Clark has been in the league forever.
KUUUUHHHHNNYou also had the advent of the West Coast offense which changed how the game of football was played, especially in the NFL. You still had two back sets and the fullback was still primarily utilized as a blocker, but they had to catch the ball out of the backfield just as well if not better than your featured back. Then as the West Coast offense began to meld with the Air Raid, fullbacks became H-backs or Y-off players. they aligned in such a way that there was never a real threat they were going to get the hand off out of the backfield. It's gotten to the point where the fullback has morphed with the tight end position.
Or Henderson.
I always enjoyed how the 49ers used Tom Rathman, that dude could run block and catch. Just a swiss army knife kind of guy.
Good post Nuts.
I've never liked I formation, and I've never liked using fullbacks. Yeah, I also think somebody is gonna go back to split backs, and it will be seen as a great innovation, and it will work, maybe even better than it did back in the day because so many teams' Ds are geared to stop the increased passing game. Kind of a back door to split backs, though, and maybe even a better way to go is using a lot of WR runs - Jayden Reed or whoever in the case of the Packers.
We ought to have both things in the arsenal. Jones and Dillon as split backs would work, but not as good IMO as Jones and somebody faster and shiftier. I'm hoping to get that in about the 3rd round (give or take one round). And I'm still thinking Braelon Allen might be that guy. If age is a concern, he's what? 20 now?
What could be more GOOD and NORMAL and AMERICAN than Packer Football?
Run's post:
KUUUUHHHHNN
Or Henderson.
I always enjoyed how the 49ers used Tom Rathman, that dude could run block and catch. Just a swiss army knife kind of guy.
Good post Nuts.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it's like taking a master class. I especially appreciate it because while I followed the game through the evolution of the West Coast offense, I lost the same level of interest and so did not understand what happened to fullbacks - until I read Nutzy's post. The last several posts of this thread, mebbe outside of Tank's, have all been good - educational for me, thoughtful. This is Packerrats at its best.
So how can I fuck this up?
"The Devine era is actually worse than you remember if you go back and look at it."
KYPack
Didn't Joe Gibbs create the H-back position to be in a better position to block Lawrence Taylor?
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
I remember in the late 90s, the Packers were hyping a Bennett/Levens or Levens/Green split backfield package, but I don't remember much special coming out of it.
(As I obviously can't even remember who the combination was.)
Last edited by NewsBruin; 02-28-2024 at 10:53 PM.
I believe in God, family, Baylor University, and the Green Bay Packers.
Max Melton, a Rutgers CB who is seen as a likely 3rd round pick, is the brother of the Packers Bo Melton.
Payton Wilson, a NC State LB who is a likely 2nd round pick is the brother of the Brewers Bryse Wilson.
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Matt Schneidman
@mattschneidman
Cooper DeJean said his college teammate Lukas Van Ness has given him good insight during the pre-draft process.
“It’d be cool to play with Lukas again, for sure. I love my Iowa guys. He was a great teammate to play with. Just an absolute freak.”
DeJean did mention he's met with Steelers a couple of times. Lot of mock drafts have Steelers taking him at #20.Dan Parr
@TheDan_Parr
Iowa CB Cooper DeJean not working out at NFL Scouting Combine but says he plans to work out at some point before draft, although probably not at Iowa’s pro day. Working his way back from broken fibula suffered in November. Started running full speed last week.
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
yes in a way, move the FB up and over to try and stall the pass rush soon rather than having Taylor destroy a FB/HB 4 yards behind the LOS.
The Y-off has become popular even more popular than using an in line TE. You get the best of both worlds now whether its in the passing game, zone scheme, or gap scheme. They can pull across the formation for a split zone scheme, zone insert scheme, and in gap schemes like GY/GH counter. The flexibility with the Y-off could be considered a small evolution in offensive football.
It was Bennett and Levens. Both were bigger backs, and Bennett actually was drafted and used by the Packers as a FB. They pretty much split carries in 1996, and they were set to be a two headed monster in the run game the next year and Bennett tore his Achilles Tendon in the first preseason game. I don't know how much they would be used together as William Henderson was a dude at FB.
A lot of Cover 2 with DeJean at Iowa. he is physical and aggressive and would fit what the Steelers want in a player. Off the top of my head I am not sure how much Cover 2/2 Read gets played by Steelers.
Yo Nutz, what’s your take on J-Love? Do you think he’s a phony like your pal Skinbasket does?
I'm not going to stop the wheel. I'm going to break the wheel.
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