I guess I can play it your way too.Originally Posted by Tyrone Bigguns
Who said its wrong? I didn't say its wrong.
I guess I can play it your way too.
Who said its wrong? I didn't say its wrong.
I almost let this slip by unchallenged, Bobblehead.
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And lastly, tex, the patriot act was the worst "quantum leap size grab at OUR freedom" that I can recall, so its both sides on that one.....oh look tyrone, I disagreed with tex AGAIN.
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First of all, the Patriot Act probably deserves it's own thread too. I'll leave that for one of you detractors of it to start one, though.
Bobblehead, have YOU lost any freedom because of the Patriot Act? I sure as hell haven't. The ONLY people who have had freedom or rights curtailed by the Patriot Act are the terrorist enemies who are actively trying to destroy this country and kill our people.
Do YOU communicate with known terrorist numbers, addresses, or emails outside the country? If not, then the provision about moniitoring that kind of communications doesn't effect you.
Are YOU one of the non-citizen terrorists locked up in Guantanamo? No? Then the depriving to them of OUR rights of due process, Habeus Corpus, etc., and well as various kinds of harsh treatment--which still falls WAY SHORT of the traditional definition of torture--has NO negative effect on you. On the contrary, it just might have the very positive effect of saving your life from the acts of terror past, present, and future that are prevented.
Does the various other forms of enhanced security deprive YOU of any rights and freedoms? Yeah, the right to not have to wait in line, be searched, go through metal detectors, bring liquids onto planes. I'm sure that's all there in the Constitution somewhere.
The point is, hell no, we normal Americans have NOT lost any rights and freedoms as a result of the Patriot Act--even liberals and libertarians have lost no rights and freedoms.
This is in contrast to the Obama, Hillary, and other Dem/lib advocated health care programs which would drastically reduce freedom of choice for medical providers, as well as greatly curtailing convenience and availability of health care of all kinds. Yeah, I suppose there is nothing in the Constitution about that stuff either.
Who cares why we import them...i certainly don't. If it lowers costs..that is the point.You gotta take my quote in context(all of it), I don't have a problem with importing qualified professionals in and of itself...but when we are doing it because we have damaged our medical profession with capped payments and diminished earnings due to gov't intervention I think it is a valid point.So? What is wrong with importing docs. If they are qualified i see no problem.Bobblehead, you keep making these silly statements that show that you very limited knowledge of what you're talking about re. healthcare. First off, if it were true that caps on payments would doom our medical system then we would have already destroyed it. How do you think reimbursements work for providers under our current system? Why do you think it is that, as Ty suggested, medical professionals are among those complaining loudest about the grave problems of our current system? Are you really thinking about what you're writing or are you just regurgitating some lesson from your Microeconomics textbook?
Second, of course what I'm talking about is a capitalist model. If it involves laborers (doctors) selling their labor to the highest bidder then by definition it's capitalist. Take a deep breath and remember that capitalism wasn't invented in Chicago by Milton Friedman in 1965.
I make the point because in england they had to import hundreds of doctors from poorer middle eastern countries because they weren't paying them enough to inspire their own youth to go to med school. I make the point because we are at the point where we aren't getting enough doctors graduating and are importing them from india. We are short on nurses too, we are importing them from the phillipines by the thousands.
This is a global economy. That is capitalism. If the youth don't wanna work for those wages...they can do another job. Or they will readjust their thoughts.
The free market works...except when you don't like it? I don't think Adam Smith would be on your side on this one. The worker has the right to move to a better job..from anywhere. And, those british docs can move to our country if they want.
I highly doubt you are for propping up blue collar wages. Should i then expect you to want high wages for GM workers..to inspire kids to wanna work the line?
We messed up the system, so we are trying to import cheap labor to sustain it. I would think you lefties who are all about bashing companies for going after cheap labor would be on my side on this one. What would you say if GM imported laborers to bust the union??
Don't make silly statements about the free market working except when I don't like it...I'll say it again...HEALTH CARE IS NOT A FREE MARKET INSTITUTION. It hasn't been since the HMO's continually gained power, or since medicare started trying to control costs for that matter. It was in my quote, you know, the part you didn't include.
Did YOU even read what I wrote, I clearly said its not free market in its present form and you go right on with implicating me for just the opposite....man, I know why tex starts calling names. (although for your convenience, you chopped off that portion of my quote as then you wouldn't be able to try and twist my words and arguement.)
Last point, I am not in any way shape or form advocating "propping up" wages, I am for letting the FREE MARKET set them. I am against artificially DEFLATING them. Again, read my post, understand it, then respond to my actual points, not the straw man points you set up.
I dont' think it is a valid point, sorry.
Free market: Agreed. So, then let's move on and get doctors anyway we can. Is there some sort of benefit to the PATIENT, INSURANCE COMPANIES, OR HOSPITALS if they all come from their native country...i don't see it.
The point would be is that HMOs aren't going anywhere. Are they? If you are against them..great, but Pancho Villa...you think you can take those windmills? Yikes.
Free market: it is as free as any other. Plenty of docs don't have to be in HMOs..one, that is their choice..two, they can choose a field where they can do elective work..ie, plastic surgery.
Or they can just make a free market choice..hang out a shingle...and see who comes a calling. nothing stopping you and the rest of the revolution from patronizing them..is there?
If they are good docs...and your health is important..i think you'll go to them if the other docs aren't as good. If you don't..then you are telling the us that healthcare isnt' that important.
For me, this is a strawman. And, once expectations are lowered...there still will be docs. That is the nature of choice. Those with a calling to serve their fellow man will still become docs, those who want a very nice living will still become docs...and those who became docs because of the high pay..they will move on to other professions...and be happy..and create glorious new things for our civilization..who knows what is being denied us because of the high pay for docs. (see, it is so great being Tex!!).
GM: When the conservs make that stand..i'll be glad to address it. But, you and i both know that the owners care about the bottom dollar. And, i have constantly heard how unions ruin things. If you wanna play devil's advocate..then you wanna dance with the devil..and you gotta start admitting that perhaps the almighty dollar isn't the sole criteria.
And, the fact is that...that companies do it all the time.
Companies hire illegals all day long to save money....yet, i hear most of the blame from conservs at the illegal...rarely at the business owner who knowingly does it.
The gov't sets prices in many areas...they won't pay more than X amount for things in the defense industry...and, like i pointed out before...i certainly don't see those companies struggling, lacking employees, etc.
To single out this field..when we have tariffs, subsidies, etc. for other industries strikes me as disengenous.
I'm all for the free market. Yet, i rarely see it practiced. And, it is conservs who don't fight to change it. Remind me when McCain comes out against corn subsidies/ethanol.
Tyrone:
1) I don't care if they import them...you missed the entire point. They fixed prices and are forced to import cheap labor now.
2) you may accpet it, I choose to point out the flaws and offer solutions.
3) It is not as free as any other, not even close. Not sure how you can draw that conclusion.
4) Yes, there is something stopping them from hanging out a shingle. Patients are locked into managed care situations and a doctor under the current system will be hard pressed to make money without playing ball.
5) Yes, they will move on to other professions. Not sure on your point. My point is that if the free market forces them to other professions, fine, if its HMO caps and a closed system, not so fine.
6) I have constantly said its the companies fault for our illegal situation. If I were in mexico I would try to sneak over here too, no question. It is up to us to make them come the right way, not them. Blaming the illegals for trying to better their life is just stupid.
7) When the gov't fixes prices in defense they are the buyer. Its not called fixing the price, its called the demand factor...when an HMO fixes the price for a service and the person getting the service has no input, it is very different. Also when you have taken competition out of the market it changes the parameters. Basically we are at a point now where the HMO's are the only buyers left (well, not quite, but you get the point), but the demand is there.
And finally I am fighting to change it, it is you who said...."The point would be is that HMOs aren't going anywhere. Are they? If you are against them..great, but Pancho Villa...you think you can take those windmills? Yikes"
Tex-
How will you feel in 2009 when Barrack Obama has the power to listen in on any phone calls he wants without a warrant?
LOL
Three things about that:
First, I'm confident the American people will not allow an Obama presidency.
Second, I don't have anything to hide. Anybody that wants to get bored to death listening to my phone calls, etc. is welcome to.
Third and most important, you are mis-characterizing the whole situation. The monitoring is ONLY COMMUNICATIONS TO AND FROM KNOWN TERRORIST SOURCES, AND ONLY THEN IF THAT TERRORIST SOURCE IS OUTSIDE OF THE COUNTRY. i don't recall the last time I talked to any of them. How about you?
How did this get in the health care thread?
Just another example....
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=92067101
C.H.U.D.
Interesting article, she is apalled that americans have to wait or pay on their own, yet she had to pay for the drug she needed on her own while the HSA dragged their feet in approving it.
Again, this article is the crux of my arguement against nationalized care. We propped up their system by our free market creating a drug and eventually making it cheap enough for them to use. I like innovation. Its good.
edit: One more thing, life expectancy is in no way a good measure of the effectiveness of health care. So many things contribute to that.
I don't hold Grudges. It's counterproductive.
Add in anorexia to that as well. Thank god the courts are changing things.
Hmm, insurance only pays for 30 days of inpatient treatment..voila..30 days later and you are cured.
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