Lets be real here, sure Young and Cunningham could run but neither were anywhere close to Vick. I think he did open up the game for some guys, back in the day if a guy ran a 4.4 or 4.5 40 teams were not playing them at QB.Originally Posted by Joemailman
With all respect;
The meaning of beatified:
http://www.walksofitaly.com/blog/vat...vatican-Teresa
** “Beatification” is the step right before sainthood.
** By beatifying someone, the Church ( Edit: The Roman Catholic Church) proclaims that the person in question is:
a) definitely in Heaven, and
b) definitely able to plead to God on your behalf if you pray to him.
(This is theoretically true for any other Christians in Heaven, too. But beatification is meant to be a rigorous process in order to prove this is the case).
Before you can be beatified, the Church (Edit: The R.C. Church) has to investigate and make sure that all of your writings show “purity of doctrine” (i.e., nothing against the faith!) and that all of your actions were motivated by virtue.
If you pass that test:
For that level, the Church has to prove also either that you were martyred or that you caused a miracle after your death.
**** After beatification, you’re then called “Blessed.”
Ted Thompson - Green Bay Packers GM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Thompson
" Ted Thompson played college football at Southern *Methodist* University....
Comment woodbuck27:
* If I assume? that then Ted Thompson was raised as "a Methodist" or a long ways apart from being raised as a Roman Catholic !?
RE: Ted Thompson:
Can we agree to move right past the status of being recognized as being beatified >>>> to something more appropriate for Ted Thompson:
Doesn't he deserve the status description as ...BLESSED !?
Last edited by woodbuck27; 06-22-2014 at 08:37 AM.
** Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner-Up and 3 X 3rd place.
** To download Jesus Loves Me ring tones, you'll need a cell phone mame
** If God doesn't fish, play poker or pull for " the Packers ", exactly what does HE do with his buds?
** Rather than love, money or fame - give me TRUTH: Henry D. Thoreau
Maybe !?
** Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner-Up and 3 X 3rd place.
** To download Jesus Loves Me ring tones, you'll need a cell phone mame
** If God doesn't fish, play poker or pull for " the Packers ", exactly what does HE do with his buds?
** Rather than love, money or fame - give me TRUTH: Henry D. Thoreau
This question applies here:
" Does the chicken come before the egg? "
** Since 2006 3 X Pro Pickem' Champion; 4 X Runner-Up and 3 X 3rd place.
** To download Jesus Loves Me ring tones, you'll need a cell phone mame
** If God doesn't fish, play poker or pull for " the Packers ", exactly what does HE do with his buds?
** Rather than love, money or fame - give me TRUTH: Henry D. Thoreau
"Back in the day" there were QBs who "scrambled" and racked up rushing yardage when pass plays broke down, but the first QBs I can remember for whom running was a frequent option were Greg Landry and Bobby Douglas. Landry was a decent passer, Douglas not so much, but Douglas rushed for just short of 1,000 yards in a 14 game schedule. In their most productive rushing seasons, Douglas' and Vicks' total rushing stats were similar, but in carries per game and rushing yards per game, Douglas comes out on top:
Douglas in 14 game schedule in 1972 - 141 carries, 968 yards.
Vick in a 16 game schedule in 2006 - 123 carries, 1039 yards.
Don't see how Douglas comes out on top when he averages 6.9 yards per carry compared to Vick's 8.4 yards per carry. Vick also has more than double the career rushing yards plus Douglass was a horrible passer with 36 TDs and 64 INTs for his career. Vick might not have been the first running QB but hes the best in NFL history for sure.
I specifically referred to their biggest years. I even posted their stats from those years. In their biggest years, 1972 for Douglas and 2006 for Vick, Douglas averaged more carries per game and more yards per game than Vick did.
Vick claims to be the first QB who was a legitimate runner. As I said, some earlier ones were scramblers, QBs who could pick up yards when passing plays broke down. The first two that I remember who had running plays designed for them that were called regularly were Douglas and Landry. Douglas had nearly 1000 yards rushing in a 14 game schedule, and Greg Landry had consecutive seasons with over 500 yards rushing in 14 game seasons. While Douglas was not a particularly good passer, Landry was decent for his time.
Vick may be the best, I'm not about to dispute that. However, Vick clearly was not the first, which is what he claimed to be.
It's like a lot of things in the NFL. If you watch long enough, you will see there are new twists, but the fundamentals go in repeating cycles. Defenses went from 5 man lines, to 4 man lines, to 3 man lines, back to 5 and 4 man lines. In the last few years there have been growing numbers of 3 man lines, which will soon again favor four man lines.
We had running QBS like Tobin Rote back in the 1950's, another bunch in the '70s, with scramblers like tarkenton scattered through out the year. But Vick being the one who changed the game? In contemporary times, that goes to Randall Cunningham who had nearly 800 carries and 5,000 rushing yards while also having 30,000 passing yards in the late '80s and '90s. Cunningham had one year over 900 rushing yards, two over 600 yards and three over 500 yards. Vick has had two seasons with over 3,000 passing yards. Cunningham had five.
Again, Vick might be the best runner as a QB, but he certainly is not the first, especially when compared to Cunningham in relatively recent times.
If Michael Vick had revolutionized the game, the NFL would be loaded with starting QB's who are great runners but who usually have a passer rating in the 70's.
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
I don't think he ever said he was the first but that he revolutionized the game. I do believe started the changed in the game with all the spread offenses you see in today's college game.
Anyhow I still view Vick's season better because even though he played more games he averaged more yards per carry facing tougher defenses. It will be awhile until we see the fastest player on the field playing the QB position again if ever.
It was enough to hand Green Bay their first ever home playoff lost...I think Kaep took notes from that game.
We probably saw it happen before Michael Vick....with Randall Cunningham.
He was typically the fastest guy on the field, too.
There was a time I thought maybe Jared Lorenzen would revolutionize how the QB position was played.
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
You should know better than this. Vick wasn't the decisive factor in the playoff game. Packer injuries and mistakes were. At the same time, Vick was incredible in a close loss for the ATL in the season opener.
"Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck
Yes but he falls into the category of all the older players and also includes Steve Young. No one, after seeing them run, wanted a running QB in the modern NFL passing era. I don't think Cunningham was the fastest guy on the field, but he was faster than other QBs and players his size. He was big and played a little Rothliesberger ball while he was waiting to throw.
But mainly, no one copied the Philly offense and Cunningham approach. And the 49ers wanted Young to stop scrambling and sit in the pocket and go through his progressions.
I would say Vick was more an intermediary step than revolutionary. He was a more skilled passer than Cunningham, whose main talent aside from his legs was a huge arm. Reid wanted to adapt his offense to him and so did Chip Kelly until he was injured. And Dan Reeves developed a Vick friendly system, though it was highly controlled. Those were the first occasions in the modern era that an offense was fundamentally altered for a QB who wanted to run as much as pass.
And that is the legacy he could argue he passes on to CK, Newton and Wilson.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
In addition, you have to remember how incredibly terrible the Bears where back then. Douglas ran against 10 in the box many times. The last game in his 968 season, it was 11 men in the box. T'he whole stadium knew he was going for 1000 yard and he pretty much ran every play. The leading receiver had 14 catches for 380 yards that season. When Douglas wasn't gaining his 968 yard, the formidable Jim Harrison was racking up 622 yards for the season.
The Bears now are better than then, just not by much
Douglas was definitely more of a runner than passer.
in 1972, 75c 198a 37.9% 1246yds
What was their offense in 1972? Single wing?
He seems to fall into the category that for a QB, he was an excellent runner. I think 100 out of 100 teams would take Vick, even at a 70 QB rating.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
The rules, where the QB is protected far more than the past is making qbs who can move more valuable as their injury risk is going down. That has more to do with it than Vick. Also, I have been influenced by Patlers history lesson and would say, "Vick didn't revolutionize anything"
Formerly known as JustinHarrell.
Cunningham was very fast. Per an article I saw today, he claims to have run a 4.29 in the 40 once, and was actually timed at 4.4, which is impressive since QBs did not work out for running speed and quickness like they do today. In his prime Vick was certainly faster and quicker than Cunningham ever was, but Cunningham was pretty impressive for his time.
I don't agree that Vick was a more skilled passer. Going on memory yesterday, I would have said Cunningham was the better passer; but after looking at their career stats, they are remarkably similar in completion %, int. %, avg/comp., QB rating, etc. Even their best seasons stats for passing are quite similar.
Vick may have taken the concept of a running QB to a more productive level, but he was by no means the originator of the concept.
.
Certainly anyone would take Vick over Douglas. My point was simply that as a QB he had a season in which he ran more frequently than Vick and for more rushing yards per game than Vick, so the amount of running that Vick has done from the QB position has been seen before.
Don't be too condescending of poor Bobby. He is a former Packer!
I don't even know that I'd say Vick was more productive. Cunningham was very good in his prime, and the focus of that Eagles offense, and had 3 consecutive seasons around 3500 yards, good for top 10 in the late 80's. Add in his rushing yards, and he was a force.
I don't remember him as being fast, but thinking about it, he must've been of course. He had an amazing arm, I remember some cross field throws where he'd roll out one way, then throw across the field with accuracy and velocity.
What I remember most, and was most surprised by, was his big season in Minnesota, playing jump ball with Moss and Carter going over 1000 yards. I also remember he'd pretty much entirely stopped running the ball at that point, and was mostly a pocket passer! I doubt Vick will ever transition to that.
--
Imagine for a moment a world without hypothetical situations...
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