Part of the problem is this:
McGinn thinks gap assignment leads to either read or up the field. That is not true. You can run one gap and keep the D lineman from Jetting up the field.Will the Packers employ more of an up-the-field, one-gap scheme than its more common two-gap look?
Between this and half the football world thinking 2 gap means double teamed, its not surprising its hard to discern what the problem is by talking to those involved.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
With Pickett and Jolly gone, the D lineman are: Raji (couldn't sniff an important deal in FA), Daniels, Jones, Boyd, Guion, Worthy. That's not exactly murderer's row.Originally Posted by wist43
With Pickett, Jolly and Wilson, you had major run stoppers but no pass rush. Its not just Brad Jones versus a superstar D lineman leaving the field for Casey Hayward. Its much more about mixing and matching. They need someone to step up and create a problem for the offense, then you have room to force teams to do things they do not wish to do. Daniels stepped up big, they need one more.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
So now you're contending that the LB's are junk, and the DL is junk??
Daniels was about the only player in the front six that was used properly!!
They only played base 20% of the time, 2-4 65% of the time, the rest I guess was some form of dime or psycho.
They should have played more base, which would have been made up of Wilson, Pickett, and Jolly - saving Raji, D. Jones, Daniels, and Perry for pass rushing situations. As it was, Raji wore down, Perry was misused, and Jones, et al were nagged by injuries.
Wilson never played, Pickett was misused, Raji overused and misused, etc.
As I've been saying, I give the players a huge pass on accountability - if I were playing in that front, I'd be demoralized too. After reading that article and seeing Trgovac's comments, I have to put him right up there with Capers for accountability. It would seem Trgovac and Capers are in agreement that the scheme has never been the problem; in their view, the players are the problem.
After reading that article I've now reversed my prediction that they will turn things around on defense - I now think we'll see more of the same. Trgovac basically said, "... it's all the fault of the players".
If he can't see that those guy were misused, then he needs to be sent packing - yesterday.
wist
Raji hasn't had his pass rush for two plus years and it isn't present early in the season, so I think that calls into question that his pass rush was diminished simply by over usage. I agree that Raji was a poor fit for the Capers system in a 2 gapping role. But he didn't perform much better at 3 tech no matter the gap responsibility, except he did stay home to plug up the run better than past years. It may be he needs to be at nose like he was in 2010 to fit. But I am not sure that's it.
Pickett and Jolly were used to stuff the run in both base and 2-4. And it worked until Game 7 or 8 and then fell apart. It coincided with rotating injuries to Matthews, Neal and Perry.
A D line with Raji and Daniels was on the field quite a bit. The were with Perry a LOT until he injured his foot. Jones was middling at best for the entire season. They can't all play DE in a four man line. Matthews has to be one of them until another pass rusher emerges. The problem isn't size, its match ups. What I wonder is who will be the run down D lineman this year.
What you might like is that McCarthy at his PC today said they were looking at sending Matthews from different places in the scheme. So they may indeed run multiple fronts, unless they just allow him to roam like an inverted psycho.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
According to Capers, there are no run downs, lol...
I agree, it is about matchups and creating mismatches - it's the reason I want a 3-3 out there in the nickel. You can do more with moving people around, you have more size on the field (mobile size, not just fat guys), and you have your more talented, or at least higher drafted players on the field.
I damn sure like a 3-3 of Daniels, D. Jones, and Peppers on the line; and Matthews, Bradford/Mulumba, and Neal on the field than any combination of 2-4 that keeps Hawk and Brad Jones on the field.
You guys all get your panties in a twist over how is an OLB going to cover a RB or TE - well, how are Hawk or Brad Jones going to cover them any better, as both of those guys pretty much suck at everything. How does any other team in the league survive with better results than we've been realizing when they don't run the 2-4 at all??
I did find that article with Trgovac's comments to be disheartening - it says he and Capers simply don't get it; and it sounds like they're going to keep right on running what they've been running irregardless of MM's input.
I hope that isn't the case, but he sure sounded like they were going to keep running the same junk, and the problem all along has been the players - that's 180 degrees the wrong approach.
wist
What is your beef with Trgo's comments?
Quote on
Will the Packers employ more of an up-the-field, one-gap scheme than its more common two-gap look?
"Maybe a little bit," said Trgovac. "But we still have that (two-gap) in our system. And we didn't two-gap as much as people think we two-gapped. We'll have to see what (Capers) gravitates to more."
Quote off.
I definitely agree that many posters on here don't understand 2 gap and one gap schemes. We mainly 2 gap at the zero technique. Our best 2 gap dudes were JJ and Pick. What I don't understand is why we didn't sign one of 'em. I know their results were lack lustre, but damn, they could shove guys around. Only Daniels has that talent in this bunch and he'll wear down at a much quicker rate bc he is a lone bone. I think they should give Ryan or JJ (if medically possible) a second look.
From the article Wist linked above: "Capers hasn't had a run defense rank better than 14th since a No. 1 finish in 2009. It's probably why Thompson and McCarthy were so ready to get rid of some people and try somebody else."
Get rid of some people and try somebody else? Do you think they meant players or DC and coaches? I would think players, because how would anyone find out from TT/brain trust what they were considering? They play it close to the vest.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." -Daniel Patrick Moynihan
My problems with his comments were exactly as I said - he put the blame for the dismal performances on the players, instead of owning up to the fact that they were asked to perform duties for which they were ill-suited.
I wouldn't expect him to say it as bluntly as that, but to say the fault lay with the players is a mischaracterization of what has been going on - the players have been misused, and I'm not the only one who's been griping about it.
If Capers and Trgovac are thinking of playing the same scheme, only with different players - they'll both be fired about 2.3 seconds after the season is over - which I would expect would be a 1st round playoff exit.
I have absolutely no faith in Capers, and now I think I might have even less faith in Trgovac... perhaps he is more the problem than Capers, and Capers is going in large measure off of Trgovac's input?? Either way, these two idiots have made a God-awful mess out of our defense the last few years, and I'm bloody well sick of it!!!
I wouldn't mind seeing both of them fired tomorrow - as disruptive as that might be, it might be better than having the two of them mucking things up for another season.
wist
Wist, as frustrating as it might be to your wish for change on the defensive staff, I hope lessons have been learned and that schemes are truly adjusted to fit personnel, and that the defense holds up their end of the bargain. I'm sure as a fan, you'd take it as well, and if they truly have made adjustments to fit personnel and it works, they wouldn't possibly "go back". That improvement, should it come to pass, would put you in kind of a weird place as a fan who doesn't trust the leadership of the defense.
One thing we can all agree on is the fact that they need some better luck with injuries, which has been a factor; to what degree can be debated, but a factor for sure.
As a fan, you hate to continue to see the achilles heel of the team be the defense because with A-Rod, you know you are seeing a special player running the offense, and you know there are only so many opportunities. Will the D be better? If they can stay healthy, I think they can be better. They are not off to a great start with Perry, Neal and Worthy starting on PUP for the D. Hopefully none of them on the same list by the start of the season.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." -Daniel Patrick Moynihan
First, saying more size (I did not quote this part) and then distinguishing between mobile size and fat guy size is just confusing when discussion a prescription. Either recommend get more mobile at a position or get bigger. Then we can discuss who can do what. Add stronger to this as well.
And that takes me to the comment above. In a 3-4 or 3-3 or even a 4-2, linebackers will be tackling runners. We have seen how, even for an exceptional athlete such as Brad Jones, learning how to do this on the inside is a chore and takes time. With no guarantee of success. You can't just stick Bradford, Neal or Mulumba back there and expect good results. That is a mismatch of training and technique. Possibly even body size.
Being more mobile in the D line in a 3-3 doesn't get you anywhere if you can't make the plays from the position your physical attributes have put you in.
Now that takes us to the Capers versus Thompson problem. Thompson is not going to draft like the Steelers and take the exact position fit in the draft, all the time sacrificing value for fit and trying to squeeze in an offensive player or two somewhere in the second round. Wolf didn't do it, T2 doesn't, none of the Wolf tree does it. But their teams have played good D.
Capers has a D that, despite his label as a Mad Scientist, is pretty simple in alignment. Its not kindergarten, if you can only play man coverage you will have some trouble, but he is not throwing a thousand fronts at you or stunting you to the Stone Age. He can do this with a player like Woodson or Matthews, but its not the skeleton and bones of the design.
To avoid getting plastered by an advanced offense, he makes small, game by game adjustments, disguising coverage, pattern matching and matching up CBs to take away offensive strengths. When the D is a vet unit, especially in the backend, it plays very well (see 2009-10). But youth and injuries have ruined those plans in three straight years *. This leads straight to M3's critique and Dom mentioning that they have suffered for being vanilla in the past.
Which is why McCarthy has asked for fewer smaller adjustments from 3 main alignments and more personnel groups. You start the season assuming the depth will play and they have to be able to play something they do well, not just be below average at because they don't have the experience in making the tiny adjustments.
Frankly, McCarthy getting involved has me scared because these kinds of things don't have a history of working out well (at least the public ones, but perhaps they are public because it went wrong). And I have no idea if multiple personnel groups will solve this riddle. The hardest thing for an O to adjust to is a D that plays lots of stuff with the same 11 guys, giving them only one advanced read before the play is over (pre-snap alignment).
Ironically, I think, and its just a guess, that the multiple personnel groups will get you closer to what you are asking. Less square pegs in round holes. They won't try to win with minute adjustments to scheme, but by winning individual battles.
* Plus the lockout and the new CBA that followed
Last edited by pbmax; 07-27-2014 at 10:33 AM.
Bud Adams told me the franchise he admired the most was the Kansas City Chiefs. Then he asked for more hookers and blow.
Don't know why MM getting involved would have you nervous - how can things be any worse?? I suppose we could go from 24th in total defense (29th against the run) to 30th.
The problems all stem from running a static 2-4 a disproportionate amount of the time and continually misusing the players in those roles. As I said, getting rid of Pickett and Jolly (2 players I like a lot) may actually help dunderdummy by not giving him sluggish run stoppers that he can't help himself but play in a "jumbo 2-4".
Dunderdummy was so simplistic and predictable in how he reacted to 3 WR's on run/pass down/distances, that all teams had to do was line up 3 wides on 1st and 10, dunderdummy would counter with his jumbo 2-4, and the offense could hand it off for an easy 7 yds!!! Dunderdummy gave up a mindnumbing 167 yds/game on the ground!!!
3rd and 1?? same thing... all the offense had to do to was trot out 3 wides, and dunderidiot would do what was expected of him - result? easy 1st down.
Then in obvious passing situations, when there was 99.9% chance that the offense was going to pass, and Capers was in a pass rushing 2-4, he would more often than not send a static rush, i.e. no presnap movement, no stunting, no blitzing, i.e. easy to know who was coming, in what gaps... easy to block.
Then there is Capers' patented blitz on 2nd down, get a sack - then rush 3 on 3rd down, play looser than loose coverage, and give up an easy 17 yd completion on 3rd and 15!!! Nothing complicated about anything that idiot was doing... the game has passed him by and he needs to retire.
I was actually feeling a little more optimistic a couple of weeks ago, but after reading that article and Trgovac's comments, I'm convinced that our problems on that side of the ball are pandemic. They start with Capers, but everyone else coaching on that side of the ball has been sniffing the fumes from Dom's spraypainted head to the point where the crap that dunderdummy is selling actually makes sense to them!!!
wist
We were the 25th overall defense, 25th against the run.
Give us credit, we gave up exactly 2000 rushing yards, that's hard to do.
We were 24th vs the pass, so that's some balance.
I just grabbed that number off of CBSsportsline...
Went back there, and they have those numbers; and in another spot have us listed at 27th against the run, and 27 overall, lol...
I'm all doped up from a surgery, doesn't help when a website just throws numbers up there without worry if they are correct or not
Any way you slice it - it's ugly, ugly stuff.
wist
That is true. Different site ranks the D's differently. The NFL site criteria is yards allowed. Some sites go by points or a weighted formula. The GBP had a bottom tier D last season no matter how ya cut it. We need to get better.I just grabbed that number off of CBSsportsline...
Went back there, and they have those numbers; and in another spot have us listed at 27th against the run, and 27 overall, lol...
I'm all doped up from a surgery, doesn't help when a website just throws numbers up there without worry if they are correct or not
Any way you slice it - it's ugly, ugly stuff.
I think you are too hung up on criticizing Capers. The guy is a brilliant defensive coach. he came in and straightened out our D when he got here. That said, it's probably time to change things up if the D doesn't perform this season.
The constant drone about the 2-4 is annoying. The 2-4 is a nickel. When we play it with Neal or Perry at one LB, it's really a 30 front anyhow. 3-3, 2-4 is basically the same set, especially on the back end. We need help at multiple spots. George Allen, Buddy Ryan, & Fritz Shurmr couldn't make a go of our D last season. Capers was undermanned last season and hopefully will have the troops he needs this year. A factor in our poor performance last season was an offensive team that was woeful with ARod out. We just didn't have an offense that could give the D a blow and they wore down.
Sometimes when sending in the defenses, you have to give to get. If a coverage is giving up "routine" 17 yard completions, it still might be the right scheme. The safeties made few plays last season and it's tough to dial up an ideal coverage when you get such scanty help from the back line like we had last year.
You're making the mistake of using rational thought in this discussion. The nattering nabobs of negativity want nothing of it!
They want nothing less than a pike with Caper's head on it. They may very well get their wish if things don't improve (and I would agree).
The reason to harp on the 2-4, is b/c Capers plays it far more than any other team in the league - if he played even amounts of 3-3 and 4-2 and the numbers were as pathetic as the 2-4, then there would be no hope whatsoever, and I would figure the personnel to be the problem instead of the coaching.
But the way Capers plays the nickel is an outlier compared to the rest of the league - a huge, throbbing outlier.
As I mentioned in another post, I read an article recently in which it detailed the amount of nickel/dime that teams are playing - the Saints played more nickel/dime than anyone in the league, 85% of snaps. The Packers came in 5th or 6th on that list as I remembered.
The Saints played the 3-3 and 4-2 about evenly, and no 2-4; whereas the Packers played no 3-3 or 4-2, and 2-4 65% of the time. The Niners and Redskins played the 2-4 in the 40 percentile; no one else played it above 30%.
That is an outlier compared to the rest of the league.
If it were an outlier that were working - being a copycat league, the rest of the league would be following suit, and Capers would be knighted as a genius; instead, the Packers defense is garbage, and some Packer fans have actually noticed... some even calling "for his head on a pike".
To tell you the truth, I'm a bit surprised the homers aren't more on Capers's case - b/c if Capers is not to blame, then TT is - yet I don't hear anyone complaining about him either. It would seem that Packer fans are content with garbage defense.
Strange... almost like the "long suffering" years of the 70's and 80's, no??
wist
Try this logic - if we play 2-4 65% of the time, and dime another 15% of the time...
Isn't the 5th DB on the roster much, much more important than the 3rd DL?? and isn't the 6th DB much more important than the 4th DL??
And since we're always playing 4 LB's, aren't the LB's more important than all the DL??
Why then is TT investing all those draft picks in defensive linemen?? Raji, Worthy, Perry, Datone Jones, Neal, Daniels... that's 3 first round picks, 2 second rounders, and a 4th rounder.
While Hawk and Jones are both below average players; Matthews is hurt often enough; and he tries to fill the other outside spot with guys like Walden and now with converted defensive linemen...
You guys don't like to talk about the 2-4, but the 2-4 is the defense we play; so if you're going to talk about Green Bay's defense - it's impossible to avoid the subject; that is, if you really want to discuss the defense beyond the superficial.
wist
You're being intentionally thick and misleading.
The 5th DB is extremely important and is much clearer than "3rd DL" as DL in general are much more specialized and situational than most DB's. Yes the LB are the most important unit on the defense because they have the edge rushers. Its super common to draft a college DE and convert them to OLB in a 3-4, in fact that's where most of them come from. They are edge rushers first and foremost.
Try this logic - if you're advocating a 3-3 but think one of our LB in a 2-4 is a DL anyways aren't you saying the solution to our defense is the difference between a guy standing or not?
70% of the Earth is covered by water. The rest is covered by Al Harris.
So you're saying the way Capers ran it last year was the cat's meow??
You still have the same problem against the run, i.e. you only have 4 guys in the box, 2 of whom are well below average players (Hawk and B.Jones); and, if the offense passes and you are in the jumbo nickel to account for the possibility of a run, now you're getting exactly zero pass rush up the middle. To make matters worse, as Capers seemed paralyzed by the uncertainty of whether it was going to be a pass or run, he played the 2-4 very static, i.e. little presnap movement, e.g. the offense knew who was rushing, and from where - how many times did we see the OLB's rush upfield, assisted by the OT's as they knew what was coming, zero pass rush from the interior DL, and the QB frying bacon and eggs while reading the paper in a mindnumbingly comfortable pocket??
Both problems are taken care of by going to a true 3-3, i.e. DL with their hands on the ground - preferrably inside the tackles; and, at the same time having that DE sized OLB on the strong side.
Sometimes I wonder if you guys even watch football at all?? Don't know what Dom's excuse is, but since he seems out of his depth these days, McCarthy has been forced to get his hands dirty on that side of the ball.
We'll see if MM actually forces some changes. The personnel are upgraded, so even if dunderdummy stays status quo, I expect we'll be a little better, but if he goes thru the season playing 2-4 nickel 65% of the time, and tries to use it as our base - we'll be making another quick exit from the playoffs.
wist
Another area that has hurt our D seems minor, but does impact. A big thing in a Zone Blitz D is secondary blitzers that can bring serious heat and get home to notch a sack. we don't have any of those guys and haven't since CW and Nick Collins left the club. If HaHa and Tramon can start to help in that area, it would pick the D up a bit.
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