The Defense - Again, the Defense :(

[3irty1]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

[Fritz]

Other coaches have to resort to trickery. The Packers just line up and beat you (or 2 teams, anyhow...).

We wish. I'm just surprised that MM and Capers can be so apparently easily surprised by what other teams have concocted.

And I'm surprised at what appears to be a somewhat lacksadaisical attitude toward the importance of the early games. It's like the first four games are MM's science lab.

[Carolina_Packer]

We wish. I'm just surprised that MM and Capers can be so apparently easily surprised by what other teams have concocted.

And I'm surprised at what appears to be a somewhat lacksadaisical attitude toward the importance of the early games. It's like the first four games are MM's science lab.

Unless MM is just saying that about being surprised to cover for how lousy the gap discipline was. PB mentioned that players were swarming to the ball, right out of their gap responsibility!

Is this too simplistic to ask, why doesn't the defense take more time to diagnose what the other team is trying to do (containing) instead of seemingly attacking on every play and (often) flying out of position?

This 1. Diagnose 2. Briefly Wait 3. React instead of this 1. Attack 2. Say "Oh Shit!" 3. Turn and Chase

[Guiness]

Unless MM is just saying that about being surprised to cover for how lousy the gap discipline was. PB mentioned that players were swarming to the ball, right out of their gap responsibility!

Is this too simplistic to ask, why doesn't the defense take more time to diagnose what the other team is trying to do (containing) instead of seemingly attacking on every play and (often) flying out of position?

This 1. Diagnose 2. Briefly Wait 3. React instead of this 1. Attack 2. Say "Oh Shit!" 3. Turn and Chase

Which one does 4. Profit! go after?

[pbmax]

I think the "surprised" quote has become boilerplate. Something to throw out there that may or may not be the reality but answers the question while giving away nothing. He used it too often otherwise. He's also an vet coach with a Super Bowl win, so he can admit to missing something. I don't think its easy for M3 to admit this is 2006-2009.

However, since the Packers new 4-3 has had some big leaks, I would be stunned if teams aren't just running new stuff to take advantage of what other teams expose.

[wist43]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??

[3irty1]

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??

"The box" isn't some amorphous shape you get to draw such that it excludes both OLB's. Sometimes our slot corner is there as well and once in a while a safety. Your commentary/obsessions on our formations would mean something if you knew a tenth of what you think you know. You'd love to centralize all the blame on one guy to the point where you just implied that Sam Shields peaking in the backfield was a Dom Capers play call. I see more variables than that and I don't think its as simple as you'd like it to be. One internet loon's hyperbole rants about how Dom is an even crazier more incompetent loon isn't so much writing on the wall as it is scratching in a restroom stall.

[pbmax]

it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS

No, that's called a fantastically designed play that even defeated Saban's defense. Sometimes you get caught in the wrong defense and the O gets one on you. When you have a rookie safety who did not react fast enough, that's even worse for the D.

Most of the other monster misdirection plays the Packers have been allowing are players not being cognizant of the backside of the defense and over-committing play side.

[wist43]

"The box" isn't some amorphous shape you get to draw such that it excludes both OLB's. Sometimes our slot corner is there as well and once in a while a safety. Your commentary/obsessions on our formations would mean something if you knew a tenth of what you think you know. You'd love to centralize all the blame on one guy to the point where you just implied that Sam Shields peaking in the backfield was a Dom Capers play call. I see more variables than that and I don't think its as simple as you'd like it to be. One internet loon's hyperbole rants about how Dom is an even crazier more incompetent loon isn't so much writing on the wall as it is scratching in a restroom stall.

You're unbelievable, lol... of course it was a Capers play call!!!

You must not have watched the video I posted of Seattle's Brock Huard breaking down that play and explaining that Seattle reacted to how Capers was defending that action... they set him up, and he walked right into it - of course it was on Capers.

If you like giving up 235 yds rushing/game, and leaving WR's running free all over the field?? Capers is ur man.

[wist43]

No, that's called a fantastically designed play that even defeated Saban's defense. Sometimes you get caught in the wrong defense and the O gets one on you. When you have a rookie safety who did not react fast enough, that's even worse for the D.

Most of the other monster misdirection plays the Packers have been allowing are players not being cognizant of the backside of the defense and over-committing play side.

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

[pbmax]

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

You think an offense has never caught a defense unprepared with a play? How many times have you seen a read-option pass to the weak side with a one receiver route?

You think there is some magical defensive alignment and scheme that allows both attack and is solid from sideline to sideline with no weakness against ANY play call?

A magical defense that never lets an opponent get into free space and catch a ball? A defense that doesn't have, even hidden, an exposed pressure point?

The problem with your litany of complaints is that it ranges from the mundane to the exotic. Run defense in nickel and dime is a problem. Preparing for every unknown read option wrinkle is not.

[Bretsky]

DOM called a very good game versus the Lions overall....just wanted to note it since many seemed to ignore his work that week

[KYPack]

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

Wist, I think you are hung up on the DC and his schemes, So you blame the coach and the x's & O's. I tend to think it is the Jimmys and the Joe's. There is a problem in the execution and players are ultimately responsible. Peppers and others got sucked in last week and gave up some big plays.

One way or the other, we got troubles. We are dead last in rushing D in the NFL. Last with a bullet. We are the only team that has allowed over 700 yards rushing this season. Our opponents average 176 yds/gm. That's also worst in the NFL. Hell, Oakland is only allowing 158/gm. We've given up 42 rushing first downs, also the worst number of all 32 teams. Oakland has only allowed 32 rushing 1st dns. Many times, excessive totals happen because a team has been gashed by long rushes. Not us. We've only given up 3 runs over twenty and none over forty. We are getting pounded by the run in smaller chunks than the other shitty rushing D's.

If this don't pick up, we'll be lucky to wind up 8-8.

We have played some excellent running ball clubs and we will have better numbers when we play some of the more pedestrian running clubs.

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

[Carolina_Packer]

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

Totally agree. So, there's the big question...how will they do it? So is it poor scheme or poor execution of scheme? While that debate rages on, can someone give us some hope here? McCarthy said in his press conferences following the game that the mistakes he is seeing with the run D are all correctable. I hope he's right. OK, putting aside whether Capers should stay or go for now (he's staying the rest of the year at least), what will they be correcting specifically? What adjustments might they make? Is it just guys getting pushed around? Is it guys out of position, losing gap responsibility?

Let's not forget we're all Packer fans. I hope they can get these problems worked out.

[George Cumby]

What I can't get my head around is WHY do we have to rehash the same shit for four years? Blown assignments, bad communication, poor execution....... AGAIN. There's talent there on the defense but it isn't being optimized. Why not? The poor fundamentals is what really kills me.

[Fritz]

Unless MM is just saying that about being surprised to cover for how lousy the gap discipline was. PB mentioned that players were swarming to the ball, right out of their gap responsibility!

Is this too simplistic to ask, why doesn't the defense take more time to diagnose what the other team is trying to do (containing) instead of seemingly attacking on every play and (often) flying out of position?

This 1. Diagnose 2. Briefly Wait 3. React instead of this 1. Attack 2. Say "Oh Shit!" 3. Turn and Chase

I don't want this post to appear to be attacking you - because it's not - but for years one of our complaints with this defense (and I was one of the ones complaining) was that it was too static, too read-and-react. After Kaepernick torched the Pack in the playoffs a couple years ago, the defense seemed to go even more toward this "hold your gap" mentality to try to contain. One of the problems three years ago, I think, was Raji not doing this and penetrating a lot against Minny, allowing Peterson to run wild. We also complained (myself included) that all this work to not have any holes in the pocket for QB's to run through meant nice clean pockets for the passer.

So MM has changed it up - more penetrating, more shooting gaps. And now this shit it happening.

I don't know what the hell to think any more. I couldn't stand that contain stuff the way it was run, because it seemed to mean that opposing QB's had all day to throw. Now Capers is getting pressure with only four, but apparently at the expense of allowing running backs gaps as wide as a porn star's.

I'm frustrated, frustrated, frustrated by this defense. I hope to goodness Capers is gone after this season. In the meantime, are we once again falling back on "it's the fundamentals"? Can't our staff teach them as well as other staffs that are not alllowing 170+ running yards per game?

[wist43]

You think an offense has never caught a defense unprepared with a play? How many times have you seen a read-option pass to the weak side with a one receiver route?

You think there is some magical defensive alignment and scheme that allows both attack and is solid from sideline to sideline with no weakness against ANY play call?

A magical defense that never lets an opponent get into free space and catch a ball? A defense that doesn't have, even hidden, an exposed pressure point?

The problem with your litany of complaints is that it ranges from the mundane to the exotic. Run defense in nickel and dime is a problem. Preparing for every unknown read option wrinkle is not.

Of course you're going to get beat - once in a while; of course a team is going to get the better of you - once in a while; of course you're going to zig when you should have zagged...

We're not witnessing any of that - what we're witnessing is play after play failure; game after game failure; season after season failure... it's the same crap over and over again.

I'm not the bad guy here - I'm just pointing out the obvious, or at least what should be obvious. You guys seem to lack the stones to call a spade a spade - when is enough ever enough for you kool-aid drinkers??

You guys don't believe in accountability - lucky for you, neither does MM or TT.

[wist43]

Wist, I think you are hung up on the DC and his schemes, So you blame the coach and the x's & O's. I tend to think it is the Jimmys and the Joe's. There is a problem in the execution and players are ultimately responsible. Peppers and others got sucked in last week and gave up some big plays.

One way or the other, we got troubles. We are dead last in rushing D in the NFL. Last with a bullet. We are the only team that has allowed over 700 yards rushing this season. Our opponents average 176 yds/gm. That's also worst in the NFL. Hell, Oakland is only allowing 158/gm. We've given up 42 rushing first downs, also the worst number of all 32 teams. Oakland has only allowed 32 rushing 1st dns. Many times, excessive totals happen because a team has been gashed by long rushes. Not us. We've only given up 3 runs over twenty and none over forty. We are getting pounded by the run in smaller chunks than the other shitty rushing D's.

If this don't pick up, we'll be lucky to wind up 8-8.

We have played some excellent running ball clubs and we will have better numbers when we play some of the more pedestrian running clubs.

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

If a DC is putting his players in positions to be successful - and then they are not making plays, are not making the tackle, are not forcing the play inside, et al, whatever their responsibility is - then you can say it is on the players.

But when a DC is putting his players in impossible situations, or such difficult situations that it is calling for the player to make a superhuman play - then there is something wrong with what the DC is doing.

As I said to Max - once in a while?? sure... it's gonna happen, and a defense is going to be out of position, or outschemed on a given play, etc; but we're not seeing a bad play call here and there, or a bad game plan on occassion, or a couple of bad games per season, etc. What we're seeing is a mess on just about every snap, in every game for the past 4 seasons.

And it is philosophical - Capers does not view controlling the LOS and being stout up the middle as being important, and it is painfully obvious. We are dead last in rush defense - and we have been utterly pathetic in just about every aspect of playing defense for years running now.

What Capers is doing is fundamentally unsound - I don't know how else to say it. If something is unsound - it will collapse; and that is what we've been witness to for the past 60 games or so... over and over again.

[3irty1]

You're unbelievable, lol... of course it was a Capers play call!!!

You must not have watched the video I posted of Seattle's Brock Huard breaking down that play and explaining that Seattle reacted to how Capers was defending that action... they set him up, and he walked right into it - of course it was on Capers.

If you like giving up 235 yds rushing/game, and leaving WR's running free all over the field?? Capers is ur man.

Capers' play call may have put Sam between a rock and a hard place, that shit happens, but he still botched the assignment by abandoning his man. It should have been an 8 yard run. Sam has a history of peeking in the backfield every since being in the league, that's a Seattle play call targeting that tendency. Absolutely terrible example to try and pin on Capers. The premise of your argument is that Dom Capers hold's an entire team's worth of incompetence and that argument is almost entirely from incredulity.

Nobody is saying the defense is fine or that Capers is blameless. I could call you an apologist for Thompson and the players because you're shifting their blame onto Capers. Hell Thompson is the real general. The buck stops here right? Your tiresome rants from repetition are more unsound than anything Capers has ever put on the field. If you want to be taken seriously by me you'll have to cut the logical fallacies, the overblown exaggeration, and back up claims. So probably never.

[wist43]

Capers' play call may have put Sam between a rock and a hard place, that shit happens, but he still botched the assignment by abandoning his man. It should have been an 8 yard run. Sam has a history of peeking in the backfield every since being in the league, that's a Seattle play call targeting that tendency. Absolutely terrible example to try and pin on Capers. The premise of your argument is that Dom Capers hold's an entire team's worth of incompetence and that argument is almost entirely from incredulity.

Nobody is saying the defense is fine or that Capers is blameless. I could call you an apologist for Thompson and the players because you're shifting their blame onto Capers. Hell Thompson is the real general. The buck stops here right? Your tiresome rants from repetition are more unsound than anything Capers has ever put on the field. If you want to be taken seriously by me you'll have to cut the logical fallacies, the overblown exaggeration, and back up claims. So probably never.

Sam was not between a rock and a hard place - he did what he was assigned to do. Everyone has acknowledged that Shields reacted properly within the misguided design of the defense - he was supposed to abandon the receiver, and the safety was supposed to pick him up, i.e. the design was unsound. That is entirely on Capers.

Seattle's offensive coaches saw it earlier in the game, and knew that if they ran that play, Shields would crash and Lockette would be left alone with only a rookie safety, several yards off, between Lockette and a TD. We all saw the result - Wilson laughing and looking back at his coach as if to say, "... yep, it was there for the takin'... easy peazy".

We are giving up 176 yds/game on the ground; we have allowed record setting performances to opponents; we have been repeatedly embarrassed in the playoffs and on national TV; we have had one of the worst defenses in the league for several years running - those are not "exaggerations" - that is the sad reality of Dom Capers defense.

--------------------------------------------

As for Thompson and the players he's brought in... I've never wavered from my position - good players, bad fit for the 3-4. It was up to Capers to adjust his scheme to make use of those players - he's never done that.

If there is blame for Thompson it is two-fold, i.e. the players he drafts not being a good fit; and 2) not forcing Capers to adapt; and 2a) failing that, firing his ass for not making it work.

Any way you slice it - there is plenty of blame to go around, and there is no accountability.

I keep hoping Capers will get his head out of his ass, but that hope isn't realistic; he does fundamentally unsound things on a regular basis; he doesn't think the opponent will run the ball - ever; he plays russian rhoulette with how he deploys his defensive fronts - almost always foresaking the interior line; he puts incredible pressure on players at the point of attack, with little hope of getting support there in time; on and on....

There is simply no defense for Capers.