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Thread: The Defense - Again, the Defense :(

  1. #221
    I believe we heard afterward that Shields played it correctly, but I don't recall whether that was the official word or the word leaking out of the locker room. If it was the correct technique, then it puts the safety in a tough spot. And that may be why a Capers D needs vets. The safety, if we assume there is not supposed to be linebacker help, needs to read his first key and then the QB or the route. And I think it was single safety so he has a lot of ground to cover.

    But that is just an evolutionary step to the game between defense and offense. The Packers had engineered a single high safety defense committed to stopped Lynch to the strong side of the offense. Seattle found a way to pull the linebackers into the LOS with a play fake (the read option) and when they or the safety bite, he rolls out to run or pass. They get to isolate a player, make him choose and then take advantage of the choice. You won't see that D against that personnel formation again.

    Georgia did the same thing to Alabama the previous year. Saban is not a man given to designing unsound defenses but he got caught by the same damn play. The play is indicative only of the offense getting a one play advantage over the D.

    Much more problematic are two other questions wist asks, both of which are tangentially related to this play.

    1. Are Capers defenses regularly over engineered to stop certain kinds of plays and therefore constantly vulnerable to counters?

    2. Does the over-engineering come from Capers tendency to be a Mad Scientist or because he is covering flaws in his defense? I know Capers board and internet rep is that of mad scientist, but he isn't Ryan or Gregg Williams. He does design new blitzes, but his most common calls are pretty standard stuff. He does not invent new defenses every week. He tweaks assignments. He follows McCarthy's dictates that he change the strength of his D by substituting personnel rather than invent a new scheme. *

    I think he is covering for flaws. The switch to the 4-3 and the new bodies on the line have introduced new variability that is hard to account for and Fritz could be right, they may want more penetration though I am not sure. But just as gap discipline was great to start the year last year, its been piss poor this year. And it is often, though not limited to, the middle of the defense. Now the why they can't be consistent is troubling.

    * I would bet that whatever threshold the D staff changed after '09 (down and distance and tendency) to determine when to use nickel rather than base happened at McCarthy's urging. He figured they would always be in shootouts so play pass defense first. So put the nickel group in earlier to counter it. As for new schemes, we have seen Psycho and amoeba defense, but that is just window dressing on a standard pass D or fire zone, making the O line guess who and how many are coming. That is less scheme and more personnel to me.

    I don't like Offensive based HCs telling their defense what to scheme. Scout, hand over confidential data? Sure. But don't muck up the works with new top-down edicts. The defense is designed from the bottom up to adhere to principles and that informs everything from practice to play calls and player acquisition. When I watch the Packers D, I see a mishmash of junk and very few doing their job well. It doesn't look well organized at all in the front seven. Its the exact opposite of how the year started last year.
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  2. #222
    Hands-to-the-face Rat HOFer 3irty1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wist43 View Post
    Sam was not between a rock and a hard place - he did what he was assigned to do. Everyone has acknowledged that Shields reacted properly within the misguided design of the defense - he was supposed to abandon the receiver, and the safety was supposed to pick him up, i.e. the design was unsound. That is entirely on Capers.

    Seattle's offensive coaches saw it earlier in the game, and knew that if they ran that play, Shields would crash and Lockette would be left alone with only a rookie safety, several yards off, between Lockette and a TD. We all saw the result - Wilson laughing and looking back at his coach as if to say, "... yep, it was there for the takin'... easy peazy".

    We are giving up 176 yds/game on the ground; we have allowed record setting performances to opponents; we have been repeatedly embarrassed in the playoffs and on national TV; we have had one of the worst defenses in the league for several years running - those are not "exaggerations" - that is the sad reality of Dom Capers defense.

    --------------------------------------------

    As for Thompson and the players he's brought in... I've never wavered from my position - good players, bad fit for the 3-4. It was up to Capers to adjust his scheme to make use of those players - he's never done that.

    If there is blame for Thompson it is two-fold, i.e. the players he drafts not being a good fit; and 2) not forcing Capers to adapt; and 2a) failing that, firing his ass for not making it work.

    Any way you slice it - there is plenty of blame to go around, and there is no accountability.

    I keep hoping Capers will get his head out of his ass, but that hope isn't realistic; he does fundamentally unsound things on a regular basis; he doesn't think the opponent will run the ball - ever; he plays russian rhoulette with how he deploys his defensive fronts - almost always foresaking the interior line; he puts incredible pressure on players at the point of attack, with little hope of getting support there in time; on and on....

    There is simply no defense for Capers.
    How long is several years? One? We had the 11th ranked defense in 2012. That's exaggerating. With you every success Capers has is attributed to the opposition's own incompetence or blind luck. Every one of your arguments is an absurd caricature of Capers painting him as a idiot who huffs paint until he's knee-walking stoned before calling every game. You make no effort to isolate him as the cause of any failures, instead just launch your daily witch hunt. Show me another professional defensive coordinator who is overcoming the dearth of talent we've had in the same places. Your assumptions on the players and their fit aren't shared by me. Am I just supposed to just believe you know better than Thompson as well as Capers? Because I don't.

    What I think is you don't want to give Thompson his share of blame because he won't make a believable witch. Not many will call for Thompson's head because they know it'd be stupid to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Same for MM, many of the players etc. A few of us on here care more about the truth than the sweet dopamine drip of indulging our god and martyr complexes.
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  3. #223
    Senior Rat HOFer Carolina_Packer's Avatar
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    It's ultimately TT's responsibility to get it right. he's the GM and President of Football Operations. Period. It's his job to identify whether something is working or not working and find a way to correct it, even if it means making a personnel change. I think it will ultimately prove to have become a bad fit and Capers will pay with his job.

    What is the difference between the defenses Capers had in his most successful stops and the ones he's had in the past few years with the Packers? Established veterans and leaders who play well together and get what he's trying to do.

    Capers was good when he had established talent, just like some teachers are good at teaching the advanced kids in math, and other teachers are good at working with kids who need a lot of patience, who don't get it right away. Is it possible that Capers is a poor fit for the Packers because he's better when coaching established defensive players and not so much when he's on a team full of players who are young and trying to get established and gel together? Three conditions have to exist for this defense to have success, given how they are currently led and constituted. 1. Capers has to have the ability to teach his scheme to younger players. 2. Those players, by the demands of the team building philosophy, have to be quick studies and be able to assimilate quickly because they will be relied on sooner that many other teams. 3. TT has to knock it out of the park when acquiring talent via the draft. If you look at recent drafts, there have been many question marks on the talent acquired on defense, even when a year of emphasis (I'm looking at you 2012 draft).

    Perhaps they hired a calculus teacher who sucks when teaching freshman algebra and the students want to do well, but they really don't get it. Time for Principal Thompson to make a decision.
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  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolina_Packer View Post
    It's ultimately TT's responsibility to get it right. he's the GM and President of Football Operations. Period. It's his job to identify whether something is working or not working and find a way to correct it, even if it means making a personnel change. I think it will ultimately prove to have become a bad fit and Capers will pay with his job.

    What is the difference between the defenses Capers had in his most successful stops and the ones he's had in the past few years with the Packers? Established veterans and leaders who play well together and get what he's trying to do.

    Capers was good when he had established talent, just like some teachers are good at teaching the advanced kids in math, and other teachers are good at working with kids who need a lot of patience, who don't get it right away. Is it possible that Capers is a poor fit for the Packers because he's better when coaching established defensive players and not so much when he's on a team full of players who are young and trying to get established and gel together? Three conditions have to exist for this defense to have success, given how they are currently led and constituted. 1. Capers has to have the ability to teach his scheme to younger players. 2. Those players, by the demands of the team building philosophy, have to be quick studies and be able to assimilate quickly because they will be relied on sooner that many other teams. 3. TT has to knock it out of the park when acquiring talent via the draft. If you look at recent drafts, there have been many question marks on the talent acquired on defense, even when a year of emphasis (I'm looking at you 2012 draft).

    Perhaps they hired a calculus teacher who sucks when teaching freshman algebra and the students want to do well, but they really don't get it. Time for Principal Thompson to make a decision.
    I remember talking about the draft at the beginning of the TT era. We had 4 players with 4-8 years of NFL experience because of Sherman/Wolfe drafts. Those are the guys that are supposed to be your core.

    Luckily now we have a lot more of those guys but a draft like 2012 can leave a hole in the roster in 4 or 5 years.
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  5. #225
    Skeptical Rat HOFer wist43's Avatar
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    So dunderdummy actually earned his paycheck this week...

    He bottled up the middle of the field - for the most part; blitzed and actually bothered to cover some receivers. To be sure Ponder helped a lot by missing open receivers, and not pulling the trigger when he needed to, but for the most part, our defense looked like an actual NFL defense for a change.

    Next week we will be right back to the same old Dom crap, but at least for one week Capers did his job.
    wist

  6. #226
    Barbershop Rat HOFer Pugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wist43 View Post
    So dunderdummy actually earned his paycheck this week...

    He bottled up the middle of the field - for the most part; blitzed and actually bothered to cover some receivers. To be sure Ponder helped a lot by missing open receivers, and not pulling the trigger when he needed to, but for the most part, our defense looked like an actual NFL defense for a change.

    Next week we will be right back to the same old Dom crap, but at least for one week Capers did his job.
    So did his players. Its a wonder how good a D can look when they tackle and rush the passer. Let's hope we can do this again in Miami against Tannehill and friends.

  7. #227
    Oracle Rat HOFer Cheesehead Craig's Avatar
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    Props to Capers and the D again. They dominated an inferior team as they should.

    Now over the last 15 quarters, the defense has allowed 47 points. That's a rate of 12.5/game.
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  8. #228
    Postal Rat HOFer Joemailman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wist43 View Post

    Next week we will be right back to the same old Dom crap, but at least for one week Capers did his job.
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  9. #229
    Skeptical Rat HOFer wist43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesehead Craig View Post
    Props to Capers and the D again. They dominated an inferior team as they should.

    Now over the last 15 quarters, the defense has allowed 47 points. That's a rate of 12.5/game.
    Geno Smith, Cutler being Cutler, and now Christian Ponder??

    The only one I'll give them credit for is keeping Stafford in check, but I can't comment on that game from an x's and o's standpoint b/c we didn't get the game here, and I didn't see it - only saw the stat sheet, which looked good... except for the final score of course.

    I knew you guys would come away from the bar and puff your chests out after we beat down a weak sister, lol...

    At least we beat a team we were supposed to beat - more good news, Miami has a lousy QB and an overall lousy offense... Dom for Coach of the Year!!!
    wist

  10. #230
    Neo Rat HOFer Fritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wist43 View Post
    Geno Smith, Cutler being Cutler, and now Christian Ponder??

    The only one I'll give them credit for is keeping Stafford in check, but I can't comment on that game from an x's and o's standpoint b/c we didn't get the game here, and I didn't see it - only saw the stat sheet, which looked good... except for the final score of course.

    I knew you guys would come away from the bar and puff your chests out after we beat down a weak sister, lol...

    At least we beat a team we were supposed to beat - more good news, Miami has a lousy QB and an overall lousy offense... Dom for Coach of the Year!!!


    I was very impressed with the pass rush until the fourth quarter, and disappointed in the way the line seemed to bend on the running game - things looked bottled up, but a running back would push the line and end up with five or six yards.

    I don't think anyone here is seeing last night's win for more than what it was - a nice win that showed improvements in some areas (the offense's running game, getting turnovers) and problems in other areas (the defense's run bulwark being soft at times). And I think we acknowledge that the Vikings' injuries and Ponder's putrid play should not be forgotten.

    But it was a win. We hope that this will help the team's confidence and understanding of the schemes as they travel to Miami.

    But your refusal to allow for any joy or any hope at all can seem suffocating. Man, enjoy the moment.

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  11. #231
    Senior Rat HOFer Maxie the Taxi's Avatar
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    Wist, you need to make a post to "Ask Vic" at Packers.com.

    This what Vic had to say today:
    Nobody’s complaining about Coach Capers today. I guess his schemes were pretty good last night. I especially liked the scheme in which Mike Daniels whips the guy across from him. That’s a great scheme.
    One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
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  12. #232
    Hands-to-the-face Rat HOFer 3irty1's Avatar
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    Ponder is such a pariah these days. I'm anxious to see Teddy too but not under those circumstances. That OL was miserable and Ponder's best throws were dropped.
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  13. #233
    Drowned Rat HOFer denverYooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxie the Taxi View Post
    Wist, you need to make a post to "Ask Vic" at Packers.com.

    This what Vic had to say today:
    "I especially liked the scheme in which Mike Daniels whips the guy across from him."

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  14. #234
    Senior Rat HOFer Maxie the Taxi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
    I was very impressed with the pass rush until the fourth quarter, and disappointed in the way the line seemed to bend on the running game - things looked bottled up, but a running back would push the line and end up with five or six yards.
    Is it just me, or do Hawk and Lattimore play deeper than most inside LB's? It seems they are always 5-6 yards behind the LOS. Maybe that accounts for the "running back push" you mentioned.
    One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
    John Maxymuk, Packers By The Numbers

  15. #235
    Sugadaddy Rat HOFer Zool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxie the Taxi View Post
    Is it just me, or do Hawk and Lattimore play deeper than most inside LB's? It seems they are always 5-6 yards behind the LOS. Maybe that accounts for the "running back push" you mentioned.
    I've always assumed that's to allow them to not be completely out of position when the time comes for them to make a play. ILB play really appears to be the huge weak link in this D now. It's glaring.

  16. #236
    Senior Rat HOFer Maxie the Taxi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zool View Post
    I've always assumed that's to allow them to not be completely out of position when the time comes for them to make a play. ILB play really appears to be the huge weak link in this D now. It's glaring.
    That's probably Dom's thinking. Compensating for their lack of speed (Hawk's) and inexperience (Lattimore). Look at game film from other teams and the inside backers are much closer to the LOS. They fill the gaps quicker. I'd move ours up a yard or two.
    One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
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  17. #237
    Neo Rat HOFer Fritz's Avatar
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    Maybe the way they play they should play deeper than the safeties...
    "The Devine era is actually worse than you remember if you go back and look at it."

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  18. #238
    Senior Rat HOFer Maxie the Taxi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
    Maybe the way they play they should play deeper than the safeties...
    LOL. Dom's probably got that alignment somewhere in his playbook!
    One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
    John Maxymuk, Packers By The Numbers

  19. #239
    Skeptical Rat HOFer wist43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz View Post
    I was very impressed with the pass rush until the fourth quarter, and disappointed in the way the line seemed to bend on the running game - things looked bottled up, but a running back would push the line and end up with five or six yards.

    I don't think anyone here is seeing last night's win for more than what it was - a nice win that showed improvements in some areas (the offense's running game, getting turnovers) and problems in other areas (the defense's run bulwark being soft at times). And I think we acknowledge that the Vikings' injuries and Ponder's putrid play should not be forgotten.

    But it was a win. We hope that this will help the team's confidence and understanding of the schemes as they travel to Miami.

    But your refusal to allow for any joy or any hope at all can seem suffocating. Man, enjoy the moment.

    I enjoyed the win... and I expect we'll look good next weak against another weak opponent.

    I keep my eye on the big picture though... we don't need to beat Minnesota and Miami (of course we do, but big whoop) to win a championship, we need to beat Seattle, and Denver, and SF, etc.

    Some of your brethren like to harken back to 2012 when we finished 12th in defense - doesn't mean much when you get completely blasted in the playoffs in embarrassing, demoralizing, 'somebody please stop the fight' fashion.

    A win is great, and if it portends true change?? Then I'd be happy, but Dom is Dom... every PackerRat should be fully aware that he is entirely capable of coming out next week with an asinine game plan that gives up 600 yds, 40 pts, and adds up to a loss. That's who the guy is.

    I need more than 1 game against a weak opponent before I start polishing laurels.
    wist

  20. #240
    Hands-to-the-face Rat HOFer 3irty1's Avatar
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    Not sure if we're talking about the same thing but it seems Dom just doesn't like to show blitz in general. He'd rather blitz unexpectedly than drop into coverage unexpectedly. Maybe he doesn't think our guys are fast enough to hustle into a passing lane from the line. Maybe he thinks they aren't explosive enough to do damage without a head of steam. Maybe its to compensate for how slow developing the coverage can be in a zone blitz. Dunno.
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