More Banjo: @ Saints Week Oh Who the *$%&! Cares

[Maxie the Taxi]

"We need to tackle the damn ball carrier and put him on the ground," he said. "That's what we'll be focused on."

Is this simply frustration with the players, or is MM starting to run out of patience with his defensive coaching staff? He's stuck with Capers for a long time, but he's fired his defensive coaching staff before.

When I hear this kind of thing from McCarthy, I get frustrated. It's kind of like the Sales Manager of a declining company saying: "We've got to go out and beat the bushes and close sales." As PB might say, it's just "word salad."

There is definitely something wrong in Green Bay and it's been wrong for some time. The Packers' defense is a mess. In a big game against an elite QB the defense got gashed for 200 yards on the ground and 300 yards through the air.

What's the answer? "We need to tackle the damn ball carrier." Well, tackling the ball carrier helps, but the problems run deeper than that.

PERSONNEL -- The Packers are undersized and under-manned on the D-line. The Saints had five guys on their O-line who are well over 300 lbs. The Pack's D-line is barely over 300 lbs. per man. Two of these men are untested rookies. And this undersizing is by design. Bigger, tested D-linemen like Pickett and Jolly have been available all season after Raji went down, but the Packers' brain trust passed on them.

SCHEME -- So, what is Dom Capers' answer to this intentional mismatch? Play only two D-lineman! That didn't work out too well against the Saints, so reportedly Dom is reconsidering. According to Rob Demovsky:

"Capers might have to decide whether he can continue to play his undersized nickel package, which features just two defensive linemen, as his primary defensive look."

While Stubby rages about putting the ball carrier on the ground, Dom doesn't seem too worried:

"I’ve seen us through the first half of the season play pretty good run defense, so I feel like we can," defensive coordinator Dom Capers insisted Monday. "You look at last night, you might question it a little bit. But I've seen us have our moments where we've played good run defense. That's what we've got to do this second half. We know when you have something like that you get tested, and you get tested until you take care of it."

Are you kidding me? He has seen his team "have our moments" of good run defense?

Now that's the sense of urgency Stubby is no doubt looking for out of his Defensive Coordinator!

To be fair to Dom, I've seen the Packers' run defense have its moments too, but it's been damn few and far between.

HEAD COACHING -- However, Stubby doesn't want to talk about scheme and personnel, which I have just done:

"Everybody wants to talk about scheme and personnel," McCarthy said. "That's something that you’re always weighing or looking at. Or are there other individuals who deserve opportunities? Can we use other individuals a certain way? That's really what we talk about as coaches day-in and day-out. Our issue is on run D are fundamental. We need to do a better job of staying square [and] getting in our gaps."

Yes, our 200 lb. DB's need to fill the gaps between those 300+ offensive linemen and stay square. I can see that.

In my judgement the real problem IS scheme and personnel. Our personnel have been tailored to fit Capers' scheme and we're paying the price for it.

[Joemailman]

When I hear this kind of thing from McCarthy, I get frustrated. It's kind of like the Sales Manager of a declining company saying: "We've got to go out and beat the bushes and close sales." As PB might say, it's just "word salad."

There is definitely something wrong in Green Bay and it's been wrong for some time. The Packers' defense is a mess. In a big game against an elite QB the defense got gashed for 200 yards on the ground and 300 yards through the air.

What's the answer? "We need to tackle the damn ball carrier." Well, tackling the ball carrier helps, but the problems run deeper than that.

PERSONNEL -- The Packers are undersized and under-manned on the D-line. The Saints had five guys on their O-line who are well over 300 lbs. The Pack's D-line is barely over 300 lbs. per man. Two of these men are untested rookies. And this undersizing is by design. Bigger, tested D-linemen like Pickett and Jolly have been available all season after Raji went down, but the Packers' brain trust passed on them.

SCHEME -- So, what is Dom Capers' answer to this intentional mismatch? Play only two D-lineman! That didn't work out too well against the Saints, so reportedly Dom is reconsidering. According to Rob Demovsky:

"Capers might have to decide whether he can continue to play his undersized nickel package, which features just two defensive linemen, as his primary defensive look."

While Stubby rages about putting the ball carrier on the ground, Dom doesn't seem too worried:



Are you kidding me? He has seen his team "have our moments" of good run defense?

Now that's the sense of urgency Stubby is no doubt looking for out of his Defensive Coordinator!

To be fair to Dom, I've seen the Packers' run defense have its moments too, but it's been damn few and far between.

HEAD COACHING -- However, Stubby doesn't want to talk about scheme and personnel, which I have just done:



Yes, our 200 lb. DB's need to fill the gaps between those 300+ offensive linemen and stay square. I can see that.

In my judgement the real problem IS scheme and personnel. Our personnel have been tailored to fit Capers' scheme and we're paying the price for it.

Actually, the Packers have played decent (not outstanding) run defense in half their games. The problem is they've played terrible run defense in the other half. And it's not like the teams that have run over them are so much better running the ball than the other teams. They've just been maddeningly inconsistent when it comes to playing the run. I think that's what has MM so frustrated. It looked like they had had 3 consecutive pretty good weeks, and then New Orleans happened. I don't think the problem is really the scheme, or the lack of size up front. If that were the case, I think they'd be consistently bad unless facing a poor running team. The real problem I think is a combination of poor tackling, and poor gap discipline. Whether the Packers need a wholesale personnel change or a coaching change is the big question. The Packers under Capers will never be a great run-stuffing team because of the amount of nickel Capers uses. But they have shown the ability to play middle-of-the-road run defense which would be good enough if they could do it consistently.

[KYPack]

I dunno, Joe Joe.

We are the worst team in the NFL vs the rush.

The GBP ain't getting gashed, we just don't stop the run.

We've given up 70 rushing 1st downs. A lot more than the next worst D.

Denver is the #1 rush D, they've given up 24 rush 1st's.

We've got to improve to mediocre against the run to have a chance in the play-offs ( I know, play-offs???)

I don't think we'll do it.

[George Cumby]

Soooooooooo...... Fire Capers???????

[Joemailman]

Soooooooooo...... Fire Capers???????

If performances like Sunday night become the norm the rest of the year, then yes. You just can't stop a great QB when it's 2nd and 3 all night.

[Pugger]

Soooooooooo...... Fire Capers???????

I don't see MM firing Capers before the season is over so unless our offense becomes unstoppable we will be 1 and done yet again in the post season if we get there.

[Maxie the Taxi]

If the choice comes down to "wholesale personnel" change or a coaching change, goodbye Capers and company.

I think we have high quality players but Capers' act is getting old and tired like me. When he first arrived in Green Bay, Dom's emphasis was on the pass rush and doing it creatively, i.e., devising ways to put his talented players in positions to succeed. When we faced an elite QB, Dom figured a way to pressure him. That pressure lead to a lot of good things happening, namely turnovers and defensive scores. The philosophy was bend but not break. Now, somehow, it's morphed into just plain breaking.

The whole Capers defense nowadays has become too cerebral, too technical. Not instinctive enough. Stubby used to harp about the players not trusting the system. Or blaming defensive woes on "communication breakdowns." Now he's resorted to reminding his defensive players that tackling is about putting the ball carrier on the ground.

Maybe after the season Dom retires and some young guy with high energy and renewed motivation takes over.

[Patler]

MM has now had two entirely different defensive coaching staffs (except for Winston Moss), and having a good defense remains the aberration, not the norm.
The same can be said for ST's.
Has he had bad staffs twice for each, D and ST?
Is it on TT?

...or, is there something about MM's entire program layout, for off season, training camp and in season, that does not foster quality performances from ST and D units? MM is an acknowledged micro-manager in terms of practice layouts, with detail for what everyone is doing every minute of time. He has acknowledged having many volumes of notebooks laying out every minute of every day when the team is in the facilities. His system has consistently turned out exceptional offenses and bad defenses and special teams.

If I were to select one word to describe his offenses, it is "cerebral". Players have to read, communicate and react. Everyone has to read and react the same. His practices are geared to efficiency, with an emphasis on calm. He talks about teaching, says littlea bout and almost practices against emotion. This seems to work for offensive performance, especially for the passing game, and maybe somewhat less successfully for a running game. Is his "thinking man" approach to workouts and practices inconsistent with the development of the playing characteristics that make for good defenses and special teams?

To borrow a phrase, does MM's program approach develop teams that are too soft to play well on D and ST, while being high achievers on O?

[pbmax]

MM has now had two entirely different defensive coaching staffs (except for Winston Moss), and having a good defense remains the aberration, not the norm.
The same can be said for ST's.
Has he had bad staffs twice for each, D and ST?
Is it on TT?

...or, is there something about MM's entire program layout, for off season, training camp and in season, that does not foster quality performances from ST and D units? MM is an acknowledged micro-manager in terms of practice layouts, with detail for what everyone is doing every minute of time. He has acknowledged having many volumes of notebooks laying out every minute of every day when the team is in the facilities. His system has consistently turned out exceptional offenses and bad defenses and special teams.

If I were to select one word to describe his offenses, it is "cerebral". Players have to read, communicate and react. Everyone has to read and react the same. His practices are geared to efficiency, with an emphasis on calm. He talks about teaching, says littlea bout and almost practices against emotion. This seems to work for offensive performance, especially for the passing game, and maybe somewhat less successfully for a running game. Is his "thinking man" approach to workouts and practices inconsistent with the development of the playing characteristics that make for good defenses and special teams?

To borrow a phrase, does MM's program approach develop teams that are too soft to play well on D and ST, while being high achievers on O?

Winner. I actually tried to write something similar yesterday but abandoned it at 8,500 words of woodbuckian denseness.

Though I don't think its the cerebral approach itself that is the limiting factor. Rather, like you need a nutrition science consultant to keep players up to the speed of the practices (same with strength and conditioning guys), you need D coaches who can create drills and team periods that will produce good defense under the regime as enacted by the HC. There is a lot of old school on the D side of the ball.

[pbmax]

I think we have high quality players but Capers' act is getting old and tired like me. When he first arrived in Green Bay, Dom's emphasis was on the pass rush and doing it creatively, i.e., devising ways to put his talented players in positions to succeed. When we faced an elite QB, Dom figured a way to pressure him. That pressure lead to a lot of good things happening, namely turnovers and defensive scores. The philosophy was bend but not break. Now, somehow, it's morphed into just plain breaking.

See, I think this analysis is self contradictory. When Capers arrived, he had a great run defense and that was where the emphasis was. He had to scheme and get nuts with fronts and blitzes to get pressure. The only year they both worked in concert was 2010, not surprisingly.

Since then, the pass rush has been middling and trending down. But unlike 2009, so is the run D. Peppers has helped the pass D, but it hasn't been consistent enough to stop opposing O's.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I think Patler's on to something. I've never heard that about Stubby, but it makes sense. I've often thought that when the Packers' falter it's due to a lack of emotion, a lack of instinctual play...especially on defense.

Take the NO game for example. I've been following the Saints quite closely because of my proximity to them. I knew the Saints had a huge chip on their shoulder and intense resolve. The Packers were walking into an emotional cauldron. I think the Packers' initial success trading scores might have been due to the cerebral nature of the offense Patler described. But I felt the defense was flat and uninspired from the opening kickoff.

Football is a game of emotions. Stubby rarely shows emotion on the sidelines. It's strange that perennially successful coaches like Sean Payton and Belicheck have a way of getting their teams up emotionally but also trade on the cerebral aspects as well.

[Maxie the Taxi]

See, I think this analysis is self contradictory. When Capers arrived, he had a great run defense and that was where the emphasis was. He had to scheme and get nuts with fronts and blitzes to get pressure. The only year they both worked in concert was 2010, not surprisingly.

Since then, the pass rush has been middling and trending down. But unlike 2009, so is the run D. Peppers has helped the pass D, but it hasn't been consistent enough to stop opposing O's.

You may be right. I'm operating with a memory like a sieve. If what you say is accurate, Dom apparently has changed his philosophy. I mean in his early days he had bigger defensive linemen, didn't he? And guys like Cullen Jenkins?

[pbmax]

You may be right. I'm operating with a memory like a sieve. If what you say is accurate, Dom apparently has changed his philosophy. I mean in his early days he had bigger defensive linemen, didn't he? And guys like Cullen Jenkins?

Yes, though Cullen Jenkins would look small on the lines of 2010-2012 (well, skinny anyway). He was a tweener DT, 6' 4" and grew to 300 pounds. While he was in the League position demands morphed to make him suitable to play DE in a 3-4. And the bad run D in '11 and '12 don't augur well for the big lineman theory of run D. That only seemed to work for a few games in 2013.

But Jenkins only started in 2009 at DE. He was replaced to get Raji in at Nose and that moved Pickett to End. Jenkins then became the designated pass rusher. He was effective and he and Clay were almost, but not quite, enough to put the Packers D deep into the playoffs. His departure marked a lessening of pass rush but there were other problems that we are still experiencing now.

I really do think Patler nailed it and something about how the team is put together and trained leaves some holes. I don't think its hitting during the season (virtually no one does that anymore including the Seahawks) or live tackling in camp (less than half of teams do). The Packers have added the half line drill back for the last two years, but even last year it took some time before it seemed to be helping and I am not sure that last year's running success wasn't more Bach/Barclay/Lacy/Starks(healthy) related than half-line drill related. Half line drills aren't a panacea this year for certain.

But the same problems keep cropping up with new casts of characters. Its systemic and I don't find it convincing that Capers has forgotten how to game plan.

[Maxie the Taxi]

As you know, I don't know a lot about the technicalities of defensive football, so I defer to you on that.

But I do think I can recognize talent...and talent will out in my opinion over any scheme. And when I went back to check on Dom's first years in Green Bay, starting in 2009, I have to say my impression is that the players on those early teams were far more talented than the players we have now.

I wrote earlier that we have the players to compete. In reality, maybe we don't. Maybe several years in a row of low draft choices and FA inactivity are catching up with us. Maybe Dom is scheming the hell out of things because he just doesn't have the players to accomplish what he'd really like to.

[Pugger]

MM has now had two entirely different defensive coaching staffs (except for Winston Moss), and having a good defense remains the aberration, not the norm.
The same can be said for ST's.
Has he had bad staffs twice for each, D and ST?
Is it on TT?

...or, is there something about MM's entire program layout, for off season, training camp and in season, that does not foster quality performances from ST and D units? MM is an acknowledged micro-manager in terms of practice layouts, with detail for what everyone is doing every minute of time. He has acknowledged having many volumes of notebooks laying out every minute of every day when the team is in the facilities. His system has consistently turned out exceptional offenses and bad defenses and special teams.

If I were to select one word to describe his offenses, it is "cerebral". Players have to read, communicate and react. Everyone has to read and react the same. His practices are geared to efficiency, with an emphasis on calm. He talks about teaching, says littlea bout and almost practices against emotion. This seems to work for offensive performance, especially for the passing game, and maybe somewhat less successfully for a running game. Is his "thinking man" approach to workouts and practices inconsistent with the development of the playing characteristics that make for good defenses and special teams?

To borrow a phrase, does MM's program approach develop teams that are too soft to play well on D and ST, while being high achievers on O?

Maybe Moss might be a problem? Wasn't he our ILB coach until this year and now he's in charge of the all?

[denverYooper]

As you know, I don't know a lot about the technicalities of defensive football, so I defer to you on that.

But I do think I can recognize talent...and talent will out in my opinion over any scheme. And when I went back to check on Dom's first years in Green Bay, starting in 2009, I have to say my impression is that the players on those early teams were far more talented than the players we have now.

I wrote earlier that we have the players to compete. In reality, maybe we don't. Maybe several years in a row of low draft choices and FA inactivity are catching up with us. Maybe Dom is scheming the hell out of things because he just doesn't have the players to accomplish what he'd really like to.

Yeah, look at the Broncos defense this year. They bought Talib, Ward, and Ware and now Von Miller is playing back up to his All-pro ability on a cheap contract (3.25 mil this year). Suddenly they look like the 96 Packers.

[Pugger]

Yeah, look at the Broncos defense this year. They bought Talib, Ward, and Ware and now Von Miller is playing back up to his All-pro ability on a cheap contract (3.25 mil this year). Suddenly they look like the 96 Packers.

It will be interesting to see how long they'll be this dominate...

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yeah, look at the Broncos defense this year. They bought Talib, Ward, and Ware and now Von Miller is playing back up to his All-pro ability on a cheap contract (3.25 mil this year). Suddenly they look like the 96 Packers.

Exactly. One reason I think TT and MM don't like to bring in FA's is that there system is so damn cerebral and complicated. They like young guys who grew up in the system rather than old dogs who maybe won't learn new tricks fast enough. That strategy might be sound if the young guys drafted are really good, but if they are mediocre, then it falls apart.

An example is Micah Hyde. The guy is good but not good enough to plan on and develop into a top notch starter, as opposed to a real, natural talent and high draft choice like Clinton-Dix.

You get enamored with these mediocre guys and before long you get to thinking they are better than they really are.

We've got a lot of undrafted, low draft choice, mediocre talent on our defense. Even our higher draft choices are not elite. Clay is the exception. Maybe Morgan Burnett. But who knows about Datone Jones? And Nick Perry? Mike Daniels?

Who are the potential All Pro's down the road on this Packer defense?

[denverYooper]

It will be interesting to see how long they'll be this dominate...

Until they have to pay Von Miller.

[smuggler]

I have tried to rationalize retaining Capers, and doing so gives me a new understanding of abused spouses. He must be fired (after the season). If MM will not do it, he must also be fired.