MVP debate: Who's most deserving? A.Rodgers - JJ Watt - T.Brady - P.Manning - D.Murray?

[King Friday]

Defense had an aging Reggie White and Leroy Butler who were elite. Beyond that just a bunch of good players who were well-coached and bought into the program, much like on the offensive side.

Aging Reggie White was still probably one of the top 10 defensive players in the league...OK, Favre's equal. Leroy Butler was one of the 2 or 3 best safeties of his generation. No one on the Packer offense came CLOSE to Butler's stature. White had an elite counterpart. Having 2 elite players on one side of the ball is typically a tremendous advantage.

[Maxie the Taxi]

sure, except that he's not a Player. So you have to pick the next best thing - the on field general.

I was thinking we had redefined MVP to mean Most Valuable Person. Sorry.

[King Friday]

Computers are magnificent creatures!!!

I'm surprised ESPN hasn't come up with some kind of MVP calculator yet.

[mraynrand]

Computers are magnificent creatures!!!

Fuck you, asshole.

[woodbuck27]

I'm surprised ESPN hasn't come up with some kind of MVP calculator yet.

http://www.advancedfootballanalytics...-rankings-2014

Final Regular Season Stats & Rankings 2014

By: Brian Burke

" Sunday's numbers are now available, including advanced stat box scores, top players of the week, team stats, and season leader boards. All numbers reflect the final advanced stats and rankings for the 2014 regular season. The top MVP candidates for this season should be Bell, Watt, Rodgers. Find out why at the links below. "

GO Aaron Rodgers GO !

[Cheesehead Craig]

Just on the field Rodgers, Romo, and Brady are all a lot more valuable than two or three JJ Watts.

I'll disagree with this. You put 2 JJ Watts on the same DL with the stats he has (not including his offensive work) and you have an elite defense and that alone would get you 12 wins with an average QB and offense with the pressure and run stopping ability he has. You put 3 on the DL, forget about opponents having any offense.

[King Friday]

I'll disagree with this. You put 2 JJ Watts on the same DL with the stats he has (not including his offensive work) and you have an elite defense and that alone would get you 12 wins with an average QB and offense with the pressure and run stopping ability he has. You put 3 on the DL, forget about opponents having any offense.

I agree...if Watt had a counterpart, then Houston's defense becomes good enough to win on their own.

[pbmax]

I'll disagree with this. You put 2 JJ Watts on the same DL with the stats he has (not including his offensive work) and you have an elite defense and that alone would get you 12 wins with an average QB and offense with the pressure and run stopping ability he has. You put 3 on the DL, forget about opponents having any offense.

The 2014 Rams would like a word with you. They have four first round picks on the D line and dominate the LOS. But they are 6-10.

[denverYooper]

You guys are really getting all balled up.

MVP = Most VALUABLE player. To the league. So think in terms of $$$. Which guy draws people in to watch and generate coin. Favre was that guy, whether he threw crushing, game and season-ending INTs (1995, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2007) or threw SB winning TD passes(1996). Favre coulda won more MVPs just for the drama$$$ factor.

This is closer to the truth.

Rich Eisen made this rationale for Rodgers, and rolls the RELAX comments in:

I went with Rodgers over Watt merely because Rodgers played as flawlessly at his position over a 10-week stretch as I’ve ever seen. Plus, for a quarterback to directly address his fan base in this social-media-driven, long-time-listener-first-time-caller-laden day and age and telling them to relax, it makes his play the greatest walking of the walk I’ve ever seen.

Sure, to people who care about only the game as it is played on the field, that statement is blank as a fart. But the game is so much more than that. It's scaffolded by an enormous hype machine that creates, picks up, and pumps up narratives ad nauseum to augment the action we see and drive revenue for the league Between Rodgers's RELAX comments and his dramatic return in the final game of the year--a game where the Packers outscored the Lions 30-6 with him in the game and got outscored 0-14 with him out--his ability to generate his own compelling narratives is tremendous. Rodgers is, in his own way, a drama queen. Just as Favre was.

[King Friday]

The 2014 Rams would like a word with you. They have four first round picks on the D line and dominate the LOS. But they are 6-10.

They don't have a JJ Watt caliber player IMO...although I think your point is valid that they have enough talent to compare as a whole.

However, you missed the part about having an average QB/offense. The Rams do not have that whatsoever. That is why they are 6-10.

[pbmax]

They don't have a JJ Watt caliber player IMO...although I think your point is valid that they have enough talent to compare as a whole.

However, you missed the part about having an average QB/offense. The Rams do not have that whatsoever. That is why they are 6-10.

Yes, but both my point and your counterpoint show the shortcoming of CC's quasi metric about Watt. It is entirely dependent on the other side of the ball performing a certain way. Comparatively, the Packers were 5-3 at the bye week while the D was playing like death, and that included a game where he was limited by injury.

[Maxie the Taxi]

This is closer to the truth.

Rich Eisen made this rationale for Rodgers, and rolls the RELAX comments in:
Sure, to people who care about only the game as it is played on the field, that statement is blank as a fart. But the game is so much more than that. It's scaffolded by an enormous hype machine that creates, picks up, and pumps up narratives ad nauseum to augment the action we see and drive revenue for the league Between Rodgers's RELAX comments and his dramatic return in the final game of the year--a game where the Packers outscored the Lions 30-6 with him in the game and got outscored 0-14 with him out--his ability to generate his own compelling narratives is tremendous. Rodgers is, in his own way, a drama queen. Just as Favre was.

Check out this article: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...all-of-fame-is

The guy not only argues that Paul Hornung didn't deserve being named MVP in 1961, but that Hornung is the least deserving player in the NFL Hall of Fame.

Classic case of letting stats get in the way of "drama."

6. Hornung had no business winning a MVP

Like his Heisman Trophy, Hornung’s MVP award in 1961 was a bit of a sham as well. He led the league in scoring again with 146 points, but he had just 742 yards from scrimmage and 10 total touchdowns. Hornung won the MVP, yet did not even get selected to the Pro Bowl. Figure that one out.


Once again Hornung was not the best back on his own team, as Jim Taylor had an excellent season with 1,307 rushing yards and a league-leading 15 rushing touchdowns.


It was also more about Johnny Unitas having a down year in Baltimore, and while Jim Brown was again great, the Browns were only 8-6. The only teams that had a strong record were Green Bay (11-3), New York Giants (10-3-1), and the Philadelphia Eagles (10-4).


Y.A. Tittle had a good year for the Giants, but he did not start every game. However, the Newspaper Ent. Assoc. did award Tittle the MVP, while the AP and UPI went with Hornung.


By today’s standards, Sonny Jurgensen should have won the MVP in 1961 for leading the Eagles to a 10-4 record despite having one of the league’s lowest-ranked defenses and running games. Jurgensen set a NFL record with 3,723 passing yards and had a record-tying 32 touchdown passes. That is much more in line with the standard of being the “Most Valuable Player."


Not what Hornung did.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Yes, but both my point and your counterpoint show the shortcoming of CC's quasi metric about Watt. It is entirely dependent on the other side of the ball performing a certain way. Comparatively, the Packers were 5-3 at the bye week while the D was playing like death, and that included a game where he was limited by injury.

My point was a contention that 2 JJ Watt's on the DL with how he played this year is an outstanding DL. You're looking at 35+ sacks from 2 players. That's far superior to the Rams DL who can't even get 2/3 that total from 4 guys.

You cannot use the Rams record to highlight that it was the defense's fault but ignore the offense which was 28th in points scored.

[mraynrand]

I was gonna mention Horning too, but all that is from secondary sources for me, since I was still an ovum at that time. But it fits - the Golden Boy - more glitz than gains; perception, glam, popularity over production. Valuable - to the league.

[mraynrand]

Hornung is the least deserving player in the NFL Hall of Fame.

He was quite famous - the glam face of the 60's Packers.

[pbmax]

My point was a contention that 2 JJ Watt's on the DL with how he played this year is an outstanding DL. You're looking at 35+ sacks from 2 players. That's far superior to the Rams DL who can't even get 2/3 that total from 4 guys.

You cannot use the Rams record to highlight that it was the defense's fault but ignore the offense which was 28th in points scored.

In response to 3irty1's point about the top QBs being more valuable than 2 or 3 Watts, you claim that two Watts would make a Defense elite.

put 2 JJ Watts on the same DL with the stats he has (not including his offensive work) and you have an elite defense

My point is that two Watt's don't make a defense elite and then you STILL need help from the offense to have a winning record. This all supports 3irty1's point.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I was gonna mention Horning too, but all that is from secondary sources for me, since I was still an ovum at that time. But it fits - the Golden Boy - more glitz than gains; perception, glam, popularity over production. Valuable - to the league.

Until he was caught gambling.

I, of course, saw all the Glory Years Packer games (except for the ones blacked out...then it was listening to Ted Moore on the radio).

Thinking back, I have to say that Hornung was a key member of that team. THE key member? I dunno. Who knows? All I know is that he ran with the ball, he caught passes, he threw passes, did the placekicking and had an incredible nose for the end zone. And no matter what anyone says, he WAS clutch.

On the other hand, I'd be hard-pressed to name one player on those championship teams that WAS an MVP. Starr? Jim Taylor? Hornung? Nitschke? Adderley? Willie Wood? Dave Robinson? Losing any one of those guys for an extended period of time would have set the team back. If I was forced to put my finger on one guy, I'd probably choose Nitschke. He was the heart and soul of that team and offenses just had no answer for him. In fact, the Packers had no answer for him.

When Starr was hurt, there was Zeke Bratkowski. When Hornung went out, there were Elijah Pitts and Tom Moore. But if Nitschke went out, there was just no replacement for him. I don't think young guys understand just how good he was. Best LB in the history of the game, and that includes Lawrence Taylor.

[mraynrand]

Until he was caught gambling.

I'm not even sure that's a crime anymore. There's been a lot of changes in the law.

[KYPack]

He was quite famous - the glam face of the 60's Packers.

Yer right, Rand.

It's the Hall of Fame, the NFL's most famous players.

Hornung is the least deserving?

He averaged over 14 points a game one season.

The least deserving HOFer is a guy named Wayne Millner, look up his numbers one time.

[denverYooper]

Well, Rodgers blew away the QB field in All Pro voting.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...4-allpro-teams

Quarterback
Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay, 44; Tony Romo, Dallas, 3; Tom Brady, New England, 2; Andrew Luck, Indianapolis, 1.

Kuhn was also voted to the AP All-Pro Team.

Murray and Dez Bryant from the Cowboys made the team... Jordy was 3rd in the voting.

Sitton was a close 3rd at guard, behind Yanda and Frederick.