ARE WE GIVING AROD A FREE PASS ??????????????????

[yetisnowman]

If Sam is seeing holding on pass plays, then he is doing his job terribly and should put his eyes back on the WR.

By contrast, a hard count or screwing with his cadence is precisely within the purview of the QB. Its his job to draw them offside.

But holding versus offside/encroachment is precisely why you fail to persuade. 99% of pre-snap penalties get called because there is nothing else happening and there are two sets of eyes on 8-10 players lined up in a row. Even if Seattle was drawn offside by a Packer flinching, there will be a penalty and the play is either free or comes back. Holding, illegal hands to face or DPI are all judgement calls and you cannot count on the flag.

Try to think of the last time one of those free shot plays bit the Packers in the ass. He's been doing it for at least five years. Name the previous times it has burned them.

The reason why it hasn't burned them is because he was certain in all those cases it was a penalty. As he should be, if he is chucking up jumpballs. To me it is just common sense. It's not a "FREE" play unless their is a penalty, so the qb should be damn sure the play is free before treating it as though it has no consequences. And I just have to doubt that it is commonplace for a qb to have the greenlight to assume defensive penalties, otherwise we would see this exact scenario happen much more often. Have you seen Aaron or any other qb throw a jumpball free play style, only to have and INT or incompletion stand? If it has it is super rare, and I would bet the qb would admit he was at fault for assuming a penalty and wasting a play or throwing a pick.
The refs have shown just about any call, no more how obvious it may seem, is a judgement call. So I will remain adamant that a qb ASSUMING a play is free, and treating it as such, is not not sound decision making.

[yetisnowman]

I contend that in those situations, he's seen the flag thrown.

Ding ding ding ding ding......

[yetisnowman]

Happened at least twice this past season - both times the INT was called back because of offsides. Granted, Rodgers and the Packers take many more chances on free plays (than other teams), because they seem able to draw the defense offsides much more frequently.

I meant where the turnover stood, hence giftwrapping it. Hence thinking it was a penalty, without knowing it.

[yetisnowman]

I hate straw men like these. Of course it was a mistake on Rodger's part. no one is denying that. The question is how culpable Rodgers is: that is, whether the gamble made sense or not, how justifiable it was, whether the wind contributed to the errant throw, the effect of the defense and the refs, etc. etc. So you disagree with some of us. What of it.

Sorry it's been pretty difficult for some to admit it was a mistake. Mistakes really only are mistakes with culpability attached to it. Other wise it's just bad luck. Aw shucks my calf, aw shucks the refs, aw shucks it's rainy in Seattle, aw shucks Richard Sherman....oh well maybe next year. In my opinion it is just a losing mentality to not expect Aaron to overcome these things. I am not claiming those are your beliefs per se, but I just see too many excuses that do remove culpability from a large contingency on this board. Sorry if I rub you thew wrong way, I have just been dealing with this argument for years.

[Patler]

If the QB waited to be certain of everything he thinks he sees, he would be sacked on every play. He assumes people will do their jobs. He assumes his own receivers will make the adjustments he expects, make the breaks he expects and at the depths he expects. He throws accordingly. If the receivers do not do as he expects, the result is often an interception.

When he sees what to him is an obvious offside, he expects the officials will also do their jobs. I seriously doubt that every time he has had a free play he has confirmed it by actually seeing the flag. He sees the offside/encroachment, and makes certain assumptions based on it.

Besides, the throw that was intercepted was not THAT bad. Sherman also made a very good play on the ball. It was not a good throw for sure, mostly because it was late but also because it was off target, just as many of AR's throws have been since the calf injury. I'm not blaming Adams, but on the other hand he also could have made a better effort at preventing an interception. I think he was surprised at how quickly Sherman adjusted to the less than perfect throw.

[yetisnowman]

If the QB waited to be certain of everything he thinks he sees, he would be sacked on every play. He assumes people will do their jobs. He assumes his own receivers will make the adjustments he expects, make the breaks he expects and at the depths he expects. He throws accordingly. If the receivers do not do as he expects, the result is often an interception.

When he sees what to him is an obvious offside, he expects the officials will also do their jobs. I seriously doubt that every time he has had a free play he has confirmed it by actually seeing the flag. He sees the offside/encroachment, and makes certain assumptions based on it.

Besides, the throw that was intercepted was not THAT bad. Sherman also made a very good play on the ball. It was not a good throw for sure, mostly because it was late but also because it was off target, just as many of AR's throws have been since the calf injury. I'm not blaming Adams, but on the other hand he also could have made a better effort at preventing an interception. I think he was surprised at how quickly Sherman adjusted to the less than perfect throw.

Well maybe we should write Aaron a letter and ask, I don't know. It's hard for me to imagine, given how inconsistent and downright terrible NFL refs can be, that Aaron has assumed correctly every single other time. But maybe you are right. I would argue given the officiating in the NFL, you shouldn't take that risk on an assumption, especially in a playoff game in a stadium where officiating hasn't been our best friend.
And yes the throw was that bad. Late+Off target towards the defender+against best corner in football=bad bad bad throw. Of course he made a great play on the ball, those plays are automatic for him. If Aaron or Adams were not expecting Sherman to make great breaks on thrown balls, then that is a whole other level of incompetence we haven't touched on.

[woodbuck27]

" Sorry if I rub you the wrong way, I have just been dealing with this argument for years. " yetisnowman

Your on Packerrats now.

It's like your trying to feed these guys a steady diet of castor oil.

[Patler]

Well maybe we should write Aaron a letter and ask, I don't know. It's hard for me to imagine, given how inconsistent and downright terrible NFL refs can be, that Aaron has assumed correctly every single other time. But maybe you are right. I would argue given the officiating in the NFL, you shouldn't take that risk on an assumption, especially in a playoff game in a stadium where officiating hasn't been our best friend.
And yes the throw was that bad. Late+Off target towards the defender+against best corner in football=bad bad bad throw. Of course he made a great play on the ball, those plays are automatic for him. If Aaron or Adams were not expecting Sherman to make great breaks on thrown balls, then that is a whole other level of incompetence we haven't touched on.

I don't know, but it seems to me that offside/encroachment is not a penalty that is missed very often; so yes, I think making assumptions based on it is not extraordinary at all. Besides, you have no idea whether or not he has assumed correctly every other time as you state. He may have assumed incorrectly other times and completed the passes, or he might have thrown simple incompletions. If this had been either of those, complete or incomplete, we wouldn't be talking about it, and wouldn't even know that he thought there was an offside.

You seem to be describing this as an unusually bad throw by AR, yet you seem to also want to minimize the effect his calf injury might have had on it. If it truly was an unusually bad throw, wouldn't you think that unusual conditions (his injury) might be a significant factor?

[woodbuck27]

Patler right now your Muhammad Ali. He's Joe Frazier.

This is 'The FIGHT'.

This isn't Muhammad Ali vs. Joe Frazier II or your 'Thrilla in Manila'.

[pbmax]

I've been posting all week that Aaron Rodgers wasn't right in Seattle and the fact that's the case had little to do with his calf injury given it was a week after his solid performance at Lambeau Field Vs Dallas.

Seattle Pass Defense Rank #3
Dallas Pass Defense Rank #22

Frankly his performance in Seattle was shocking.

Rodgers Pass Rating at Home: 133.2
Rodgers Pass Rating on Road: 94.2

Aaron Rodgers throws off of his uninjured right leg. As Aaron Rodgers admitted himself the left calf injury isn't a factor in the mechanics of his passing.

Is his left leg involved in the mechanics of moving in the pocket?
Did McCarthy fail to put him under center because the Team Doctor's were wrong about the affect his injury had on his movement?
Did McCarthy practice him less because McCarthy is ignorant about throwing mechanics or because posters here are pretending that following through on a throw (landing on a left leg) is unimportant?
Have you ever seen Rodgers move around a lot, then throw a good ball to an open receiver? Is this easier, harder or the same with a calf injury?

Aaron Rodgers is an intensely sensitive man. Aaron Rodgers gets balled up in his emotions.

I once cried during a movie. Somehow, I was able to avoid this during football games, even the time I tore ligaments in my ankle. Though I do believe I took the opportunity to curse loudly in front of a lot of people.
Also, mind reading is a terrible analytical tool.

[yetisnowman]

I don't know, but it seems to me that offside/encroachment is not a penalty that is missed very often; so yes, I think making assumptions based on it is not extraordinary at all. Besides, you have no idea whether or not he has assumed correctly every other time as you state. He may have assumed incorrectly other times and completed the passes, or he might have thrown simple incompletions. If this had been either of those, complete or incomplete, we wouldn't be talking about it, and wouldn't even know that he thought there was an offside.

You seem to be describing this as an unusually bad throw by AR, yet you seem to also want to minimize the effect his calf injury might have had on it. If it truly was an unusually bad throw, wouldn't you think that unusual conditions (his injury) might be a significant factor?

Well you are right, I can't be sure. I just don't recall any plays in which Aaron treated them as a free play, when there was no penalty. Regardless of the outcome. This is the first time I remember that happening. And I watch a lot of Packers games.

I think the calf affected his mobility and footwork, sure but I do not believe it has that drastic of an effect on his accuracy. He was more accurate and efficient vs Dallas and Detroit and did not make the crucial mistake, in spite of his injury. Yes I know Seattle's defense is tough, but I still watched the game and saw errant throws to OPEN receivers, mis reads, and poor decisions that didn't appear to be affected by a pass rush or suffocating coverage.

What I saw was Aaron playing a crappier version of his typical playoff game, which sadly enough isn't good enough to beat good teams.

[mraynrand]

Aw shucks my calf, aw shucks the refs, aw shucks it's rainy in Seattle, aw shucks Richard Sherman....oh well maybe next year.

These items represent the reality of the situation. And all of them affected Rodgers' performance. They should all be factored into determining how much of Rodgers poor performance was due to external versus internal factors. At least I know the coaches will assess them all so they can correct what is correctable, rather than just ranting and saying Rodgers sucked.

[yetisnowman]

These items represent the reality of the situation. And all of them affected Rodgers' performance. They should all be factored into determining how much of Rodgers poor performance was due to external versus internal factors. At least I know the coaches will assess them all so they can correct what is correctable, rather than just ranting and saying Rodgers sucked.

Well the super bowl likely goes through Seattle for at least the next couple of years, so the latter three are not expiring variables. He has yet to play a good game there, injured or not. So what I am saying is he needs to step the fuck up or we will continue to spend mid-late januarys lamenting missed opportunities.

You have to compete against good teams with good defenses in the playoffs, that's the nature of the beast.

[mraynrand]

Well the super bowl likely goes through Seattle for at least the next couple of years, so the latter three are not expiring variables. He has yet to play a good game there, injured or not. So what I am saying is he needs to step the fuck up or we will continue to spend mid-late januarys lamenting missed opportunities.

You have to compete against good teams with good defenses in the playoffs, that's the nature of the beast.

Well, sure, you'd like him to have a better performance. But they certainly should have won with what he did. Perhaps another problem was McCarthy didn't let him do more. There were a lot of factors. My point is that you can look at his QBR and say "Gosh, Rodgers sucks" but that gets you nowhere in figuring to what went wrong, what went right, and how to improve.

[pbmax]

What I saw was Aaron playing a crappier version of his typical playoff game, which sadly enough isn't good enough to beat good teams.

It usually is:

                                                           Pass Pass  Pass Pass Pass Pass  Pass Pass  Pass
Rk                      From   To  Lg  Tm  G  W  L T  W-L%  Cmp  Att  Cmp%  Yds   TD  Int  Rate  Y/A  AY/A
1        Jeff Hostetler 1989 1993     TOT  6  4  2 0 0.667   72  115 62.61 1034    7    0 112.0 8.99 10.21
2            Alex Smith 2011 2013 NFL TOT  3  1  2 0 0.333   66  114 57.89  873    9    0 108.6 7.66  9.24
3           Kurt Warner 1999 2009 NFL TOT 13  9  4 0 0.692  307  462 66.45 3952   31   14 102.8 8.55  8.53
4         Aaron Rodgers 2007 2014 NFL GNB 12  7  5 0 0.583  253  387 65.37 2983   23    7 101.0 7.71  8.08
5            Drew Brees 2004 2013 NFL TOT 11  6  5 0 0.545  306  464 65.95 3539   24    6 100.7 7.63  8.08
6           Erik Kramer 1991 1994 NFL TOT  4  1  3 0 0.250   91  130 70.00  999    6    3  98.2 7.68  7.57
7           Frank Reich 1990 1997     TOT 14  9  5 0 0.643   67  104 64.42  783    7    3  97.6 7.53  7.58
8        Russell Wilson 2012 2014 NFL SEA  7  6  1 0 0.857  111  181 61.33 1573   10    5  96.3 8.69  8.55
9          Joe Montana* 1981 1994 NFL TOT 23 16  7 0 0.696  460  734 62.67 5772   45   21  95.6 7.86  7.80
10         Mark Sanchez 2009 2010 NFL NYJ  6  4  2 0 0.667   95  157 60.51 1155    9    3  94.3 7.36  7.64
11          Jeff George 1995 1999 NFL TOT  3  1  2 0 0.333   71  129 55.04 1001    9    3  93.8 7.76  8.11
12         Ken Anderson 1973 1982 NFL CIN  6  2  4 0 0.333  110  166 66.27 1321    9    6  93.5 7.96  7.42

[woodbuck27]

"Frankly his performance in Seattle was shocking." woodbuck27

"Rodgers Pass Rating at Home: 133.2 ... Rodgers Pass Rating on Road: 94.2" pbmax

Aaron Rodgers QBR in the NFC championship game was about 55 or about 40 points below his seasonal average on the road.

That's a shockingly poor performance.


" Aaron Rodgers throws off of his uninjured right leg. As Aaron Rodgers admitted himself the left calf injury isn't a factor in the mechanics of his passing. " woodbuck27


"Is his left leg involved in the mechanics of moving in the pocket?" pbmax

yes.


" Did McCarthy fail to put him under center because the Team Doctor's were wrong about the affect his injury had on his movement? " pbmax

Mike McCarthy is conservative.

Troy Aikman remarked that maybe his best throw all day was moving to his right out of the pocket on a decent throw to James Starks just outside of the Seattle goal line right. Aaron Rodgers reacted to that throw as it was so close to a completion.

Troy Aikman remarked that maybe his best throw all day was moving to his right out of the pocket on a decent throw to James Starks just outside of the Seattle goal line right. Aaron Rodgers reacted to that throw as it was so close to a completion.

4th Qtr:2-7-SEA 30 (11:11) (Shotgun) 12-A.Rodgers pass incomplete deep right to 44-J.Starks.


" Did McCarthy practice him less because McCarthy is ignorant about throwing mechanics or because posters here are pretending that following through on a throw (landing on a left leg) is unimportant?" pbmax

Again MM is conservative (maybe over cautious?). Maybe? he babied Aaron Rodgers?


" Have you ever seen Rodgers move around a lot, then throw a good ball to an open receiver?" pbmax

Yes.


" Is this easier, harder or the same with a calf injury? " pbmax


If Aaron Rodgers makes even one or two more plays were likely getting set right now to play New England for the Lombardi trophy.

See my comment above and Aaron Rodgers rolling right to pass to James Starks and Troy Aikman's commentary regarding how Aaron Rodgers looked on that maneuver.

[pbmax]

If his best throw was an incompletion, then I would say he was perhaps affected by the injury and the Defense wasn't helping.

[woodbuck27]

Right now...... We've got an exciting Super Bowl game between the two best teams in the NFL.

Maybe? we'll get more from Aaron Rodgers next season and be there.

[yetisnowman]

Well, sure, you'd like him to have a better performance. But they certainly should have won with what he did. Perhaps another problem was McCarthy didn't let him do more. There were a lot of factors. My point is that you can look at his QBR and say "Gosh, Rodgers sucks" but that gets you nowhere in figuring to what went wrong, what went right, and how to improve.

The only reason Rodgers performance was close to good enough to win was because the Seahawks turned it over 5 times. Yes there were many factors, but Rodgers poor performance is as big of one as any in my opinion. Scheme needs to improve, discipline needs to improve, personnel needs to improve, and yes Aaron's performance in the playoffs since the Super Bowl run need to improve.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Rodgers played well enough against that defense in that stadium. Even led them back at the end of the game to send it to OT. Again, the refs blew the first interception. He thought he had and should have had a free play. Basically, Brady is following the same blueprint that Rodgers. With similar results. Much better than Peyton's results last year. It's a tough defense.